Death for Abortionists!

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Dr. Tom Coburn, a former Oklahoma congressman and now (after yesterday's primary election), the GOP candidate for senate in that state, has reiterated his support for imposing the death penalty for abortionists. "My contention for the death penalty is, if you intentionally take innocent life, you ought to be open to the death penalty," Coburn said in an interview. "That's what abortionists do" (story here). He has subsequently clarified his statement:

"In my comment last week, obviously I was not referring to current law, under which abortion is legal and those who perform them are not in violation of the law. My hope is that one day America will return to our historic standards which were to respect the life of the unborn. And when the unborn are protected in law, as they should be, then those who take their life should be punished the same as those who take any innocent life."Which, I guess, is good news for Coburn, who is himself a former abortionist (for this and other position statements, as well as a chance to volunteer for Coburn's campaign, go here).

Perhaps it is only fitting that Coburn seeks to represent Oklahoma in the senate along with James Inhofe, widely regarded as the dumbest senator of them all.

Anyone from the Sooner State care to comment?

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Sometimes we rent Oklahoma out for big parties.

Deep in Texas,
Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Sometimes we rent Oklahoma out for big parties.

Deep in Texas,
Cycloptichorn

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crikey

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Re: Death for Abortionists!

joefromchicago wrote:

Dr. Tom Coburn, a former Oklahoma congressman and now (after yesterday's primary election), the GOP candidate for senate in that state, has reiterated his support for imposing the death penalty for abortionists. "My contention for the death penalty is, if you intentionally take innocent life, you ought to be open to the death penalty," Coburn said in an interview. "That's what abortionists do" (story here). He has subsequently clarified his statement:
"In my comment last week, obviously I was not referring to current law, under which abortion is legal and those who perform them are not in violation of the law. My hope is that one day America will return to our historic standards which were to respect the life of the unborn. And when the unborn are protected in law, as they should be, then those who take their life should be punished the same as those who take any innocent life."
Which, I guess, is good news for Coburn, who is himself a former abortionist (for this and other position statements, as well as a chance to volunteer for Coburn's campaign, go here).

Perhaps it is only fitting that Coburn seeks to represent Oklahoma in the senate along with James Inhofe, widely regarded as the dumbest senator of them all.

Anyone from the Sooner State care to comment?

Lemme ask you a question, Joe. When do you feel life begins? With its first breath? Life begins at conception, Joe. It's viable when it can live on its own. Between those points, at about 6 weeks, 2 weeks before it's standard to perform abortions in the first trimester, the fetus begins to feel... including pain... Are you really okay with people chopping them up and vacuuming them out through the birth canal? It may not be quite the same as murder, but it certainly seems like criminal behavior... especially when initiated b/c a woman was careless about birth control...

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Re: Death for Abortionists!

princesspupule wrote:

Lemme ask you a question, Joe. When do you feel life begins? With its first breath? Life begins at conception, Joe.

Depends on what you mean by "life" I suppose.

princesspupule wrote:

It's viable when it can live on its own. Between those points, at about 6 weeks, 2 weeks before it's standard to perform abortions in the first trimester, the fetus begins to feel... including pain... Are you really okay with people chopping them up and vacuuming them out through the birth canal?

Morally or esthetically?

princesspupule wrote:

It may not be quite the same as murder, but it certainly seems like criminal behavior... especially when initiated b/c a woman was careless about birth control...

Well, let's be clear: I think Coburn is absolutely correct -- at least insofar as he is following the implications of his position to their logical conclusion. It is abundantly clear that one should support the death penalty for abortionists if one believes that fetuses are persons, abortion is murder, and the death penalty is an appropriate punishment for murder (now, I happen to disagree with all of those points, but then I'm not running for the senate). It is people like Coburn who, with the stark honesty of their positions, highlight the base hypocrisy that masquerades as the "Right to Life" position of most conservatives.

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Bravo, joe, on that last paragraph.

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http://www.charfooschristensenpc.com/CPFetal.html

Central nervous system is already about half developed by the time abortions are performed.

princesspupule wrote:
Lemme ask you a question, Joe. When do you feel life begins? With its first breath? Life begins at conception, Joe.

Quote:

Depends on what you mean by "life" I suppose.

It's your thread, Joe. What do you think is life? Define what you mean, please. I know you disagree w/Coburn's definition of life, but what makes yours more right than his? He is, after all, a doctor, trained in science... and your field of expertise is elsewhere...

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What is the likelyhood that he will be elected to the Senate?

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princesspupule wrote:

It's your thread, Joe. What do you think is life? Define what you mean, please.

Well, this isn't a thread about abortion per se, but rather about the political ramifications of Coburn's statements and his campaign for senate. Furthermore, I never took issue with Coburn's stance on when life begins, so I'm not sure why I should justify (or even explain) my own views on the subject. If you want to discuss this issue outside the political context, then I suggest you start a thread in the Philosophy or Religion forums.

princesspupule wrote:

I know you disagree w/Coburn's definition of life, but what makes yours more right than his? He is, after all, a doctor, trained in science... and your field of expertise is elsewhere...

See above.

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Acquiunk wrote:

What is the likelyhood that he will be elected to the Senate?

I haven't seen any polls that have come out since Tuesday's primary, but I believe that Coburn is favored slightly over his democratic rival, congressman Brad Carson.

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Please don't do anything that causes you anguish

princesspupule wrote:

When do you feel life begins? With its first breath? Life begins at conception, Joe. It's viable when it can live on its own. Between those points, at about 6 weeks, 2 weeks before it's standard to perform abortions in the first trimester, the fetus begins to feel... including pain... Are you really okay with people chopping them up and vacuuming them out through the birth canal? It may not be quite the same as murder, but it certainly seems like criminal behavior... especially when initiated b/c a woman was careless about birth control...

There are many causes for a pregnancy. A woman's "careless[ness] about birth control" is but one cause. Regardless of the cause, each woman has a right to privacy. Each woman must examine her own conscience and determine whether the continuance of the pregnancy is the best choice for her to make.

When I was a young woman, I was careless about birth control. At the age of 21, I became pregnant. I wanted to continue the pregnancy. However, my boyfriend [the man whom I eventually married] did not want a child. When I told him about the pregnancy, he became very distressed. He begged me to have an abortion and I refused. It was MY CHOICE. It was MY BODY. He could not force me to have an abortion, so he resorted to mental and emotional abuse.

My boyfriend ranted about how I was destroying his life. I tried to explain to him that my choice to continue the pregnancy was exactly that: MY CHOICE. Whether he would stay with me or not was his choice. No matter how much I loved him, I could not abide by his wishes on this matter. His continuing verbal and emotional abuse caused me considerable stress and tears and my body couldn't tolerate it. The hours of stressful anguish caused a spontaneous abortion--a miscarriage. (Perhaps his abusive conduct makes HIM a murderer?)

It took me a long time to forgive my boyfriend for the stress that he heaped upon me due to the emotionally devastating results. It was my choice whether I wanted to continue the pregnancy and I viewed his conduct as taking away my choice. But, the situation could have been reversed. What if I was the one who thought the pregnancy would destroy my life--and what if HE was the one who was against terminating the pregnancy?

It still would have been MY CHOICE--as a woman--as the pregnant individual--I was the one who needed to examine my conscience and decide what is best for my life. This is deeply personal and private decision that each woman needs to make for herself when faced with a pregnancy that is unwanted for whatever reason.

Princess, given your viewpoint on abortion, you should never choose one for YOURSELF because it would cause you considerable anguish. Even if your man threatens you or verbally abuses you, I hope you stand your ground and distance yourself from the stress. It's your body, your conscience, and your choice. But please, do not foist your viewpoints on others because their personal and private circumstances may be very different from your own.

Do not judge others. Only the Creator--the Supreme Being--can sit in judgment of others. And with that said, I believe the Creator is loving, compassionate, and forgiving.

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joefromchicago wrote:

this isn't a thread about abortion per se, but rather about the political ramifications of Coburn's statements and his campaign for senate. Furthermore, I never took issue with Coburn's stance on when life begins, so I'm not sure why I should justify (or even explain) my own views on the subject.
...

princesspupule wrote:
I know you disagree w/Coburn's definition of life, but what makes yours more right than his? He is, after all, a doctor, trained in science... and your field of expertise is elsewhere...

See above.

Okay, then. In the political context, what are the ramifications of Coburn's statement?

Our peers defined the country's position on abortion, but it was based as much on popular opinion as science. Science holds that life begins at conception, lives when it is viable on its own. What is wrong with a politician trained in science defining a term scientifically rather than politically?

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Re: Please don't do anything that causes you anguish

Debra_Law wrote:

What if I was the one who thought the pregnancy would destroy my life--and what if HE was the one who was against terminating the pregnancy?

It still would have been MY CHOICE--as a woman--as the pregnant individual--I was the one who needed to examine my conscience and decide what is best for my life. This is deeply personal and private decision that each woman needs to make for herself when faced with a pregnancy that is unwanted for whatever reason.

How do you feel about financially supporting a child. If a woman wants to have the child and the father doesn't should he still be held financially responsible for that child? Even if it was HER CHOICE? It seems to me that there were two people involved in making the baby... shouldn't there be two people involved in choosing weather or not to destroy it. Personally, I feel that abortion is needed in some cases, but when it is used as a means of birth control, especially repeatedly, it is wrong.

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A cancerous cell is a living cell. The mutation, by whatever mechanism, of a fibroblast cell into a metastisizing cancer can threaten the life of the person within whose body it grows. Simply appealing to the fact that the growth is living is specious. There is a very valid distinction made in biology between an embryo and a fetus. Your statement that "Science holds that life begins at conception . . . " is a statement from authority, an authority to which no one here necessarily knows you have the right to appeal. Your statement has as much validity in the comparison of an embryo to a fetus as the comparison of a canerous growth to an embryo. I note that you have not addressed The Stern Miss Law's comments on the choices with which a pregnant woman is faced. I note that you have chosen to characterize scientific descriptions in a manner convenient to the case you wish to make.

Finally, i note that you are attempting to change the topic of Joe's thread from one of the significance of an individual with such expressed views taking a seat in the Senate, to a discussion of when life begins, and thereby justify a contention that abortion is murder. You're entitled to your opinion; i am entitled to consider it an hysterical warping of fact, and an attempt to derail the thread.

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Re: Please don't do anything that causes you anguish

Debra_Law wrote:

There are many causes for a pregnancy. A woman's "careless[ness] about birth control" is but one cause. Regardless of the cause, each woman has a right to privacy. Each woman must examine her own conscience and determine whether the continuance of the pregnancy is the best choice for her to make.

1st, let me say I'm sorry for you loss. But I don't see miscarriage as the same as abortion.

I agree that every woman has a right to privacy, and a right to make her own decision. BUT when it involves a hospital or others, it is not so private any more. And the medical professionals who perform them wait until the tissue is more fully developed to perform abortions rather than at the time on implantation. The reason is that there is more of a chance they might miss some tissue the earlier the procedure is performed. This is in spite of the central nervous system developing along, which means at some time, the embryo/fetus begins to feel. There are medical methods to prevent implantation even after fertilization. They cause the body to spontaneously lose the embryo before it feels anything. I don't see why doctors continue to make women wait and get abortions in hospitals, causing more suffering to both the woman and her unborn offspring, when they could offer a product designed to cause the body to expel the tissue without the same degree of trauma or drama. Of course, this has little to do with politics and everything to do with profit on procedures and the shadow of medical malpractice...

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Setanta wrote:

Finally, i note that you are attempting to change the topic of Joe's thread from one of the significance of an individual with such expressed views taking a seat in the Senate, to a discussion of when life begins, and thereby justify a contention that abortion is murder. You're entitled to your opinion; i am entitled to consider it an hysterical warping of fact, and an attempt to derail the thread.

Hm, lemme comment on this first... wasn't the significance supposed to be that Coburn is as dumb as Inhope, by virtue of his view that abortion is murder?

Joe asked for comments from the Sooner state, and while I am not a resident of that state, since nobody else was picking up the ball, I thought I might just throw it in to play... and the first point seemed to be to prove that Coburn wasn't a dumbaSS by virtue of his statement... It was inferred that everyone would agree. I didn't. I respect Joe immensely. I think he is probably one of the smartest posters here. I was curious on his own personal views because I suspect that they play in to his interpretation that Tom Coburn is dumb. He asked for comments, so I offered mine. Smile

Now, about cancer being a living cell... It ain't living once the host dies, and that can't be said about a fetus, can it?

:wink: PP

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princesspupule wrote:

Okay, then. In the political context, what are the ramifications of Coburn's statement?

I don't know, but I'm curious to find out.

In general, this kind of brazen honesty by the extreme right wing doesn't go over very well with the voters. For example, Newt Gingrich proposed cutting welfare benefits for mothers under the age of 18, those mothers who could not or would not identify the fathers of their children, and mothers whose children were born with drugs in their systems. In the long run, Gingrich argued that these measures would cut down on the number of illegitimate births (it would probably have also increased the number of abortions, but no one dared mention this particular topic). In the short term, however, Gingrich was honest enough to recognize, and to admit, that the government would be forced to take responsibility for countless children. Gingrich's solution: build orphanages!

Now, cutting welfare benefits to "unfit" mothers is a popular position. After all, nobody likes the image of the "welfare queen" irresponsibly popping out babies at taxpayers' expense. Building orphanages, in contrast, is a decidedly unpopular position (too many people have read Dickens). So Gingrich was punished, in the court of popular opinion, for advocating what was, in all honesty, the unpopular but logical consequence of his welfare policy.

Will the public mete out the same sort of punishment to Coburn? I don't know. It will be interesting to see.

princesspupule wrote:

Our peers defined the country's position on abortion, but it was based as much on popular opinion as science. Science holds that life begins at conception, lives when it is viable on its own. What is wrong with a politician trained in science defining a term scientifically rather than politically?

I don't feel the need to defend a position that I have never taken. I did not say, or even suggest, that Coburn was wrong for advocating the death penalty for abortionists. Indeed, as I explained, I think that is the only logical position that he could take, given that he thinks fetuses are persons, abortion is murder, and murderers should receive the death penalty.

It is, however, troubling that Coburn has not, as far as I know, advocated punishing the women who are getting the abortions as accessories to murder. Perhaps even he is reluctant to follow his line of thought to its furthest logical conclusion.

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princesspupule wrote:

Now, about cancer being a living cell... It ain't living once the host dies, and that can't be said about a fetus, can it?

:wink: PP

Yes it can.

:wink: CdK

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Craven de Kere wrote:

princesspupule wrote:
Now, about cancer being a living cell... It ain't living once the host dies, and that can't be said about a fetus, can it?

:wink: PP

Yes it can.

:wink: CdK

OK, sometimes, but not always regarding fetuses, not regarding cancer.

:wink: PP

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Death for Abortionists!

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