Is affirmative action REALLY fair?

C.I., what was the purpose of your "what if" hypothetical questions, to break ties?

How they would handle practical, work-related, situations. Book learning and experience are fine, but different folks handle the same situations differently in most cases.

Joe, as CS has stated, your hypothetical is not reasonable at all. Why ask that kind of question when one that applies to the task at hand could be asked?

If it *is* erroneous, and I'm not convinced yet, then can you explain what is causing my confusion along these lines? I thought that people with lower academic credentials were being given access to limited seats in colleges and universities, based purely on their perceived race. How is this scenario not in conflict with your hypothetical example?

Re: Is affirmative action REALLY fair?


In choosing a college, my most major criteria would be the manner in which classes are taught; anything else I could find a way to deal with. In good colleges, classes are discussion groups; you go over materials and problems on your own time and then meet in class to discuss whatever you've gone over.

In colleges which I'd not send kids to, and this includes an awful lot of big-name schools, you walk into a classroom, a bell rings, some clown starts writing stuff down on a chalkboard and you sit there trying to copy it down until another bell rings an hour later. That or anything which much resembled that would prevent me being interested in any school, no matter the name or prestige rating.

What I'd recommend is asking permission to observe typical classes for one day at any schools you might be interested in.

Carbon, your post suggests that you have descended from your habitual befuddlement into a profound confusion. First of all, CS is you, not (as I suspect you meant), CI (i.e. cicerone imposter). Secondly, CI didn't state anything about my hypothetical, reasonable or otherwise. And finally, my hypothetical wasn't a question directed to job applicants, it was directed to you.

Once you've cleared up this confusion I invite you to respond to my previous post.

I really have no idea. Limited intelligence, maybe? An unwillingness to research the issue? A level of credulousness shared with the vast majority of Americans? Just pure cussedness? Without knowing more about you I can only speculate at this point.


My hypothetical posited two applicants, both of whom were qualified for the job. The same holds for applications to colleges and universities. If two applicants for one position in an incoming freshman class are both qualified, and one is white and the other is a member of a minority, then the college is permitted to choose the minority candidate as part of an affirmative action program.

Joe, I don't know if you're being intentionally dense about all this, or if you really just don't understand, but I'm tired of listening to you twang that hair that you obviously have across your ass.

You've had more than one opportunity to communicate your point of view clearly and politely, but instead you've chosen to be self rightious and obscure. Quit wasting my time.

rosborne: If you would take the time and make the effort to frame an intelligible question, I will be happy to respond.

No two humans are ever "equal" in anything.

All of us use subjective qualifiers to determine who we pick; that's what makes us human.

Rosborne, I can't see why you accuse Joe of being obscure; his logic and writing are very clear. And Joe, I know you were only throwing out "possibilites" that could--IF they were true--explain Rosborne's inability to overcome his "confusion". But if you have been reading Rosborne's posts you would know that "limited intelligence" is not the explanation--not even "maybe".
If I may continue to play referee: Rosborne, you should not have let Joe's temporary descent from his usual civility motivate your similar uncivility ("I'm tired of listening to you twang that hair that you obviously have across your ass"). Hell, I've never said that even to Frank.

Gungasnake, your generalizations about teaching are unfounded. I've studied four colleges and universities and taught for a quarter century in three institutions (one a community college, another a five year liberal arts college, and the other--for 23 years--a major university, and the most obvious characteristic of every one of these schools is that every teacher had his/her own, and sometimes ideosyncratic, style of teaching. There are many ways to rank schools, but teaching techniques and styles are not among them.

Which is why, IMO, we need EEO and other laws to regulate fairness.

Snood, In this world, we always don't get what we want or wish. Others make decisions that impact us every day; very few will act on them to change it. That's the reality. There will always exist racists and bigots in this world. All we can do is try our best to improve the things within our grasp. Yelling "fire" all the time gets tiresome - even for me!

Joe, I don't see how your hypothetical is even relevant if it is aimed at ME. What is the point? WE all know where I stand, and if it only applies to me individually, then why discuss it? It is irrelevent.

My point was that we are better off WITH legislation that compels people to not just hire those they are "comfortable" with, than WITHOUT it - What's your point? I didn't advocate yelling "fire" or anything like it.

Your point is your point: even I understand that! How far you go with it is the issue. It's not with me.

Quote, "... we are better off WITH legislation that compels people to not just hire those they are "comfortable" with..." Show me how this never happens in the minority businesses.

New debate over
black identity





Confusion over Africa and its relationship to black people in this country may be coming to a head very soon.
We now find that more Africans than ever are immigrating to the U.S. and that their presence may dramatically change the discussion on affirmative action.

Over the years, affirmative action has become a free-for-all grab bag that anyone who is not white - or not male! - can use as a precedent for special treatment by the government or the job market, especially where public funds are distributed. That is not, however, how affirmative action was conceived, rightly or wrongly.

Almost a decade ago, I attended a conference called by then-Vice President Al Gore, in which many people spoke on issues of color and ethnicity. One of the most important was Richard Goodwin, who had been involved with affirmative action when it was conceived.

Goodwin said affirmative action had been applied in a number of cases that were not part of the original mission, which was to address the fact that only one group in America had spent more than 200 years enslaved and that its descendants deserved some consideration because of that. It was not intended for people from India, from Africa, from Latin America, from Asia, the Caribbean and so on.

To many, this is a jarring argument because, during the intellectually fuzzy 1960s, black nationalism took such a strong position that there was an aggressive argument for black people to deny their American experience and reach out for Third World identification. Black Americans were supposedly displaced Africans whose identity had been hidden from them.

The impact of this thinking is directly behind the problems that black Americans, especially those in what is called the underclass, face with growing emigration from Africa. Now the threat is coming from their African cousins - not from their brothers and sisters. Actual Africans, hot with immigrant ambition, could now become another "model minority" and displace black American low achievers.

As actual "African-Americans," they could take advantage of affirmative action, which would make even more obvious the limitations suffered by those in the black underclass who are not motivated.

Affirmative action will continue to be discussed, but the debate over American identity is just beginning.

It will be revealing to see just how soon black Americans begin to realize that their American experience is unique and has little to do with the limited subject of color alone.

When black Americans actually throw away sentimentality about Africa and begin to assert their historical identity as Americans and elevate their aspirations along the lines of drive we find common among immigrants, we will see our country improve remarkably.

Originally published on February 24, 2005

Your responses are making less and less sense, Carbon. You are, therefore, excused from making any further attempts to respond to my posts.