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Is affirmative action REALLY fair?

 
 
CarbonSystem
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2004 05:54 pm
First of all, yoru comparison is flawed, because slavery ended before any of us here could be a part of it. That is like you saying the police will wait for the child of the puncher, and punish them after thier father dies.
By the way, the police may turn to the people who got punched. How can you be sure that one of them didn't start the fight?
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 08:41 am
If I hit your father so hard he could not work anymore - don't you think I have taken something away from you and the family is not owed reparations....

Do you really think that the African American people that came after 400 years of slavery and segregation didn't inheret the discrimination of today?

That is like saying that I did not inheret the money and advantages of my family and the bonuses of being white male in America.

I know what your saying - "I didn't inheret anything." - are you sure?

Have you ever been sat near the kitchen, have you ever not gotten a job and you have no clue why, have you ever been treated poorly while others seemed to be being treated better? I for one - being white, male, and upper middle class - have not - but I have read and witnesses the THOUSANDS of testemonies of blacks that have.

It works like this. If my father stole a car from your father - and no one found out until both of our father died and I inhereted the car - you have a rightful claim to reparations for the loss of that car.

Now image an object that is not so easy to see - like discrimination, segregation (which is still legal in two states in America), being treated like a second class citizen. Blacks are owed for the hundreds of years of opression that you want to wave away so easily.

Honestly think about that and tell me they have not inereted disadvantage and I have not inhereted advantage.

TTF
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-I-1-2-No-U-
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 08:59 am
Re: Is affirmative action REALLY fair?
CarbonSystem wrote:
I have recently been thinkin about colleges and universities and I have been somewhat put off by the fact that affirmative action is almost reverse discrimination. I am a white male and for me to get a full ride scholarship into the University of Michigan would be nearly impossible. Yet, I know of an african american girl who had no higher than a 3.2 GPA. Her SAT score was also no higher than 26. How can this be fair? Shouldn't the the points system be equal for EVERYONE? Giving minorities a leg up over a white man just because of their race is somewhat encouraging discrimination. I believe the person with the highest scores should be accepted and such, regardless of race, sex, or sexual preference.


EQUALITY IS AN IDEALISTIC REALITY THAT PROMISES FAIRNESS BUT BY HUMAN INADEQUACY DELIVERS INJUSTICE
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 09:30 am
Re: Is affirmative action REALLY fair?
-I-1-2-No-U- wrote:
EQUALITY IS AN IDEALISTIC REALITY THAT PROMISES FAIRNESS BUT BY HUMAN INADEQUACY DELIVERS INJUSTICE

Three comments:

1. In forums such as these, writing in all-caps is interpreted as shouting. We try not to shout too much around here, so you may want to consider toning it down a bit.

2. You have an interesting idea there. Care to expand upon it?

3. Welcome to A2K, -I-1-2-No-U-.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 01:41 pm
I suspect that No-U's caps lock button is stuck. I have a friend who typed out his dissertation all in caps because his computer was stuck. I don't know how the library official who checks dissertations for format propriety let him get away with that.
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thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 06:57 pm
JL-

I think back to my dis- and they hit me for a double period on page 23 and had me resubmit it - I can't imagine all caps. Wink

TTF
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-I-1-2-No-U-
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 08:59 am
Re: Is affirmative action REALLY fair?
joefromchicago wrote:
-I-1-2-No-U- wrote:
EQUALITY IS AN IDEALISTIC REALITY THAT PROMISES FAIRNESS BUT BY HUMAN INADEQUACY DELIVERS INJUSTICE

Three comments:

1. In forums such as these, writing in all-caps is interpreted as shouting. We try not to shout too much around here, so you may want to consider toning it down a bit.

2. You have an interesting idea there. Care to expand upon it?

3. Welcome to A2K, -I-1-2-No-U-.


CAPITALS ARe NOw BEing Reduced...........
..............................................................
..............................................................
..............................................................

Equality is a human ideal that is unobtainable due to the imperfections of our species - Evolutionary progression prohibits such a state due to the process of natural selection - Selection is of itself a choice process that discriminates between varying entities and refuses equilibrium
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 09:33 am
Re: Is affirmative action REALLY fair?
-I-1-2-No-U- wrote:
Equality is a human ideal that is unobtainable due to the imperfections of our species - Evolutionary progression prohibits such a state due to the process of natural selection - Selection is of itself a choice process that discriminates between varying entities and refuses equilibrium

What, then, is the practical import of this view? How does it affect affirmative action?
0 Replies
 
-I-1-2-No-U-
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 10:46 am
Re: Is affirmative action REALLY fair?
joefromchicago wrote:
-I-1-2-No-U- wrote:
Equality is a human ideal that is unobtainable due to the imperfections of our species - Evolutionary progression prohibits such a state due to the process of natural selection - Selection is of itself a choice process that discriminates between varying entities and refuses equilibrium

What, then, is the practical import of this view? How does it affect affirmative action?


Evolution confirms the process of affirmative action because it never desires equality
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 04:44 pm
As I understand it, the American ideal of equality is not a denial of physical and/or mental inequalities across individuals. It does deny inherent inequalities between groups. Equality pertains to protection under the law and to the public opportunity structure (aside from the private advantages of inheritance within wealthy families or lineages).
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rufio
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2004 01:58 pm
Oy, I sort of abandoned this thread, didn't I? Sorry, I've been off doing anthro stuff.

Joe, the university wants diversity such that people of different cultural backgrounds get to interact with each other. A lot of things besides race play into your cultural background. Going to college is supposed to be a kind of cosmospolitan learning experience. Heh.

As for my example with the Texans and the NYC blacks, I'm assuming that they all scored the same. In any case, a lot of schools now are placing less weight on test scores and more on diversity and well-roundedness. Hell, I'm all for that, and I didn't get a low score on the SAT.

And finally, my point is that if the college is not going to count diversity as more than just race, why even go halfway and include minority students? Why not just have a school full of WASPs if that's all "diversity" means to you anyway? All it does is essentialize race further.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 09:30 am
joefromchicago wrote:
And so you'd favor taking the Texan over one of the NYC blacks, even if the Texan scored lower on standardized tests and had a lower GPA?


eventually, rufio, in response, wrote:
As for my example with the Texans and the NYC blacks, I'm assuming that they all scored the same.

That doesn't answer my question.

rufio wrote:
And finally, my point is that if the college is not going to count diversity as more than just race, why even go halfway and include minority students?

That makes no sense.
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rufio
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 07:38 pm
I have this thing called school. I realize you probably haven't been involved in any kind of directed learning for half a century and probably can't remember what it is, but it takes a lot of time, which means I have to take breaks from reading mindless prattle on the internet occassionally. Deal with it.

I am not talking about test scores. I never was. Test scores are not part of this discussion. I don't know how else to say it.

Why doesn't it make sense that the illusion of diversity is not the same as diversity itself?
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 10:50 pm
Ouch! What kind of a school makes one so testy?
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Nov, 2004 09:57 am
rufio wrote:
I have this thing called school. I realize you probably haven't been involved in any kind of directed learning for half a century and probably can't remember what it is, but it takes a lot of time, which means I have to take breaks from reading mindless prattle on the internet occassionally. Deal with it.

I have never criticized you for taking long breaks from the internet. Indeed, rufio, if your latest post is indicative of the attitude that you intend to take when responding to me, I'd prefer it if you took longer breaks from the internet. On the other hand, if you are unwilling to engage in a fair discussion and answer the questions that you've left unanswered, then maybe you shouldn't have come back at all.

rufio wrote:
I am not talking about test scores. I never was. Test scores are not part of this discussion. I don't know how else to say it.

You've suggested that there is some sort of standard for diversity. On the other hand, you've never explained whose standard you're relying upon. You still haven't.

rufio wrote:
Why doesn't it make sense that the illusion of diversity is not the same as diversity itself?

How do you know that it's an "illusion" if you don't have a standard for evaluating diversity?
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rufio
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2004 12:45 am
It's the anthro, JL. Sad It's like, the Matrix. You can't ever look at anything the same way again. Razz

I'm sorry joe, but you said eventually as if to imply that I was avoiding the question. I wasn't. I was busy.

When I originally responded to this, I posted some quotes from college websites about what they expected out of a diverse student body. Then my browser crashed. Luckily, those sites are still out there, and you can find them yourself.

Interestingly, when schools talk about diversity, they don't mention test scores, or academic acheivements, or anything like that - they talk about students from different cultures and backgrounds meeting each other and getting world experience. In fact, if you'd applied to a college in the past like 10 years or so, as I understand it (and I realize you haven't) you'd see all kinds of admissions staff talking about how much more they now value diversity of background and how much less test scores and grades count for. Obviously they still count for something, but the focus has shifted.

While the diversity standards do mention race, they also mention a lot of other things. You don't tend to see as much effort being put into those other things though.
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doyouknowhim
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Dec, 2004 06:04 pm
How has the scores of the girl effected a "full ride scholarship to the University of Michigan for a white male" ? Do her scores make the scholarship impossble for attainment of white males ?

"Shouldn't the point system be fair for Everyone" If the point system was equal for "Everyone" how would this make things fair ?
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CarbonSystem
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Dec, 2004 06:09 pm
Your question doesn't make sense to me, can you reword it maybe?
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CarbonSystem
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 11:46 pm
Can anyone make sense of what he is trying to say here?
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rufio
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2005 11:03 pm
I think I understand....

There is a limited amount of free money in the world, and thus a limited amount of scholarships. Thus, one person getting a scholarship does mean that someone else doesn't get one.

Fair does not mean "equal".
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