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Islammic intentions

 
 
swolf
 
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 11:55 am
http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php?table=old&section=current&issue=2004-07-24&id=4835

Published: Jul 24, 2004
Author: Anthony Browne

Quote:
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,717 • Replies: 29
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 12:14 pm
Here, let me hook you up with a compatriot.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=794463&highlight=#794463
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 12:24 pm
There are some 1.7 Billion adherents to The Muslim Faith on the planet. As with any similarly large group, far and away the greatest proportion are normal, honest, peace-loving, hardworking folks intent on little more than living their lives and raising their children. That some thugs have appropriated the mantle of that faith behind which to mask their criminal intentions in no way justifies blanket condemnation of the entire group; rather, doing so plays directly into the agenda of the thugs. Its not Muslims that are the problem, or Islam, but fascistic armed radical Islamists. Failure to recognize, and address, that distinction assures the thugs convenient implementation of their agenda. There are a few thousand thugs ... cut their funding, reduce their freedom of movement, increase the opportunity cost of their depredations, ferret them out, neutralize them, and, paramount, correct the injustices which enable them, and we'll all, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, and Greenbay Packer fan alike, live in a better world.
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drom et reve
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 12:38 pm
I agree with Timber. (And they would be cute together, wouldn't they, Cav?)

I find it abhorrent that you could sweep everyone with the same brush. Think of the number of right-wingers in America. Then think of the far smaller number of fascists. The situation is the same with Islam, and-- as it is, sadly, current human nature to consider the bad rather than the good-- these sorts are more talked about than good Muslims. Which makes sense, as who would read articles about going to Mecca peacefully or, even in our case, saying the baptismal rites? No one.

The problem is taking things to the extreme; making no matter of what one is religiously, being fundamentalist is harmful, because fundamentalism preaches intolerance.

0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 01:10 pm
timberlandko wrote:
There are some 1.7 Billion adherents to The Muslim Faith on the planet. As with any similarly large group, far and away the greatest proportion are normal, honest, peace-loving, hardworking folks intent on little more than living their lives and raising their children. That some thugs have appropriated the mantle of that faith behind which to mask their criminal intentions in no way justifies blanket condemnation of the entire group; rather, doing so plays directly into the agenda of the thugs. Its not Muslims that are the problem, or Islam, but fascistic armed radical Islamists. Failure to recognize, and address, that distinction assures the thugs convenient implementation of their agenda. There are a few thousand thugs ... cut their funding, reduce their freedom of movement, increase the opportunity cost of their depredations, ferret them out, neutralize them, and, paramount, correct the injustices which enable them, and we'll all, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, and Greenbay Packer fan alike, live in a better world.



I used to believe that sort of thing; other than the case of Islam, I still do. The evidence simply indicates that Islam has to be treated differently from all other religions.
0 Replies
 
drom et reve
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 01:14 pm
Prove to us that most muslims are not benevolent, then.


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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 01:23 pm
That's plain to see, swolf. Also plain to see is that the thugs have got you just where they want you. Step back 70 years, move to Central Europe, substitute the word "Jews" for the word "Muslims", and you've got the same sentiment. In point of fact, anti-semitism is the root evil here; the jihadist's prime objective is to eradicate Israel, and by virtue of hindering them in that effort, we, The West,and in particular The US, have become targets, too. The Jihadists are the enemy, not the Muslims, just as the Nazis were the enemy, not the Germans. The jihadists' dream all but realized would be to gain over Muslims the power and influence the Nazis gained over the Germans. Thinking of the sort espoused by the piece you quoted, and apparently endorsed by you, is the surest way to give the jihadists what they want.
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swolf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 01:46 pm
timberlandko wrote:
That's plain to see, swolf. Also plain to see is that the thugs have got you just where they want you.



Did you actually read the article I posted?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 01:47 pm
Yes.
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swolf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 01:56 pm
Most people wouldn't know it. I'll give you a bit more to chew on here:

Quote:
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 02:13 pm
So you've bought into the thugs' game hook, line, and sinker. Your recommendation then would be genocide?
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swolf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 02:55 pm
timberlandko wrote:
So you've bought into the thugs' game hook, line, and sinker. Your recommendation then would be genocide?


Ok, let's take the items one at a time. Item 1:

Quote:


That's coming from a guy who is close to the top of whatever passes for organized islam in America. How and for what reason would you find that less than disturbing?
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 02:55 pm
timberlandko wrote:
So you've bought into the thugs' game hook, line, and sinker. Your recommendation then would be genocide?


What you miss is that people say the same thing about people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Farwell. When it is said about them there are tons of people on the Left that jump and down and agree. No one but their followers stick up for them. Someone like swolf starts a thread about people just like them and people like you jump to defend them without even knowing what they really stand for. Have you ever defended a Christian like you are defending a Muslim? There is a level of hate in America that is allowed to be directed at Christians that isn't allowed to be directed at Muslims. When I see this all I think is hypocrisy in peoples beliefs. If we were to stop Muslim mosques from opening and being built it would be called racists, but when Muslim nations keep Christian churches from being built it is called culture! Where is the fairness in that? Why are Muslims allowed to bigots and Christians are not?
People don't have him where they want him they have you where they want you, with your guard down and your arms open.
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swolf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 04:40 pm
Quote:

Why are Muslims allowed to bigots and Christians are not?
People don't have him where they want him they have you where they want you, with your guard down and your arms open.


I'd say lying face down in the wrong direction on a one-way street with tire marks going up and down him...
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 05:17 pm
Baldimo, you bein' a newbie an' all, its understandable you'd be somewhat perplexed by the reaction some folks around here are gonna have re your assessment of my stereotypically anti-conservative, lock-step-liberal, politically correct stance Laughing

Welcome to A2K anyhow. Try to catch up, OK?
0 Replies
 
Jim
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 08:51 pm
Swolf - Many of the Saudis I have talked candidly with have many of the beliefs outlined in your article. But as others have pointed out, the Muslim World is large, and not all share the same attitudes.

As for myself, I am far more worried about what the Western World is not doing than I am worried about what the Islamic World is doing. For a few examples:

- We're spending ourselves into oblivion, both on the national and individual levels.

- We're doing little to wean ourselves off of foreign oil.

- And possibly the most dangerous, many western countries have birth rates far below the level needed to maintain stable populations.
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 02:28 am
What I find disturbing is that 'Islam' and 'muslims' seem to be one big bunch of evil retards (according to both the article and some people's opinion here). Now, you may find me a hypocrite, Leftish person who doesn't want to see 'the truth', but you do have to realize that the underlying tone of at least the article you started with on this thread (and which I've read) is that people should FEAR Islam and Muslims. While Islam and Muslims are as diverse as Christianity and Christians, Judaism and Jews, and Europe and Europeans. And it would be really nice to hear for the majority of 'normal' Muslims that they are part of something we Westerners should FEAR. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 06:32 am
swolf wrote:
timberlandko wrote:
So you've bought into the thugs' game hook, line, and sinker. Your recommendation then would be genocide?


Ok, let's take the items one at a time. Item 1:

Quote:


That's coming from a guy who is close to the top of whatever passes for organized islam in America. How and for what reason would you find that less than disturbing?


We already have a religion trying "to be the highest authority in America".

I will start worrying about Islam in America when...

- I see a public official defying a court order to remove Muslem religious texts from public property,
- Moslem religious groups take over school boards to remove broadly accepted science facts from the science curriculum.

But even when a religion tries to butt into public life this way, somehow I think we will survive.
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swolf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 05:50 pm
ebrown_p wrote:


We already have a religion trying "to be the highest authority in America".

I will start worrying about Islam in America when...

- I see a public official defying a court order to remove Muslem religious texts from public property,
- Moslem religious groups take over school boards to remove broadly accepted science facts from the science curriculum.


In other words, muslim fanatics flying aircraft into the twin towers and levelling lower Manhatten doesn't bother you but a threat to the monopoly position held by evolutionism in our government schools does?

You might want to try to explain that one a little better since a lot of people are going to have a hard time comprehending it.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 05:55 pm
Rick d'Israeli wrote:

And it would be really nice to hear for the majority of 'normal' Muslims that they are part of something we Westerners should FEAR. Rolling Eyes


Want something to be afraid of? Try this:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040721-101403-1508r.htm

Scouting jetliners for new attacks
By Audrey Hudson
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Quote:

Flight crews and air marshals say Middle Eastern men are staking out airports, probing security measures and conducting test runs aboard airplanes for a terrorist attack.

At least two midflight incidents have involved numerous men of Middle Eastern descent behaving in what one pilot called "stereotypical" behavior of an organized attempt to attack a plane.

"No doubt these are dry runs for a terrorist attack," an air marshal said.
Pilots and air marshals who asked to remain anonymous told The Washington Times that surveillance by terrorists is rampant, using different probing methods.

"It's happening, and it's a sad state of affairs," a pilot said.

A June 29 incident aboard Northwest Airlines Flight 327 from Detroit to Los Angeles is similar to a Feb. 15 incident on American Airlines Flight 1732 from San Juan, Puerto Rico, to New York's John F. Kennedy Airport.

The Northwest flight involved 14 Syrian men and the American Airlines flight involved six men of Middle Eastern descent.

"I've never been in a situation where I have felt that afraid," said Annie Jacobsen, a business and finance feature writer for the online magazine Women's Wall Street who was aboard the Northwest flight.

The men were seated throughout the plane pretending to be strangers. Once airborne, they began congregating in groups of two or three, stood nearly the entire flight, and consecutively filed in and out of bathrooms at different intervals, raising concern among passengers and flight attendants, Mrs. Jacobsen said.

One man took a McDonald's bag into the bathroom, then passed it off to another passenger upon returning to his seat. When the pilot announced the plane was cleared for landing and to fasten seat belts, seven men jumped up in unison and went to different bathrooms.

Her account was confirmed by David Adams, spokesman for the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS), who said officers were on board and checked the bathrooms several times during the flight, but nothing was found.

"The FAMS never broke their cover, but monitored" the activity, Mr. Adams said. "Given the facts, they had no legal basis to take an enforcement action. But there was enough of a suspicious nature for the FAMS, passengers and crew to take notice."

A January FBI memo says suicide terrorists are plotting to hijack trans-Atlantic planes by smuggling "ready-to-build" bomb kits past airport security, and later assembling the explosives in aircraft bathrooms.

On many overseas flights, airlines have issued rules prohibiting loitering near the lavatory.

"After seeing 14 Middle Eastern men board separately (six together and eight individually) and then act as a group, watching their unusual glances, observing their bizarre bathroom activities, watching them congregate in small groups, knowing that the flight attendants and the pilots were seriously concerned and now knowing that federal air marshals were on board, I was officially terrified," Mrs. Jacobsen said.

"One by one, they went into the two lavatories, each spending about four minutes inside. Right in front of us, two men stood up against the emergency exit door, waiting for the lavatory to become available. The men spoke in Arabic among themselves ... one of the men took his camera into the lavatory. Another took his cell phone. Again, no one approached the men. Not one of the flight attendants asked them to sit down."

In an interview yesterday with The Washington Times, Mrs. Jacobsen said she was surprised to learn afterward that flight attendants are not trained to handle terrorist attacks or the situation that happened on her flight.
"I absolutely empathize with the flight attendants. They are acting with no clear protocol," she said.

Other passengers were distraught and one woman was even crying as the events unfolded.

The plane was met by officials from the FBI, Los Angeles Police Department, Federal Air Marshal Service and Transportation Security Administration. The Syrians, who were traveling on one-way tickets, were taken into custody.

The men, who were not on terrorist watch lists, were released, although their information and fingerprints were added to a database. The group had been hired as musicians to play at a casino, and the booking, hotel accommodations and return flight to New York from Long Beach, Calif., also checked out, Mr. Adams said.

"We don't know if it was a dry run, that's why we are working together with intelligence and investigative agencies to help protect the homeland," he said.

Mrs. Jacobsen, however, is skeptical the 14 passengers were innocent musicians.

"If 19 terrorists can learn to fly airplanes into buildings, couldn't 14 terrorists learn to play instruments?" she asked in the article.

The pilot confirmed Mrs. Jacobsen's experience was "terribly alike" what flight attendants reported on the San Juan flight.

He said there is "widespread knowledge" among crew members these probes are taking place.

A Middle Eastern passenger attempted to videotape out the window as the plane taxied on takeoff and, when told by a flight attendant it was not permitted, "gave her a mean look and stopped taping," said a written report of the San Juan incident by a flight attendant.

The group of six men sat near one another, pretended to be strangers, but after careful observation from flight attendants, it was apparent "all six knew each other," the report said.

"They were very careful when we were in their area to seem separate and pretended to be sleeping, but when we were out of the twilight area, they were watching and communicating," the report said.

The men made several trips to the bathroom and congregated in that area, and were told at least twice by a flight attendant to return to their seats. The suspicious behavior was relayed to airline officials in midflight and additional background checks were conducted.

A second pilot said that, on one of his recent flights, an air marshal forced his way into the lavatory at the front of his plane after a man of Middle Eastern descent locked himself in for a long period.

The marshal found the mirror had been removed and the man was attempting to break through the wall. The cockpit was on the other side.

The second pilot said terrorists are "absolutely" testing security.

"There is a great degree of concern in the airline industry that not only are these dry runs for a terrorist attack, but that there is absolutely no defense capabilities on a vast majority of airlines," the second pilot said.

Dawn Deeks, spokeswoman for the Association of Flight Attendants, said there is no "central clearinghouse" for them to learn of suspicious incidents, and flight crews are not told how issues are resolved.

She said a flight attendant reported that a passenger was using a telephoto lens to take sequential photos of the cockpit door.

The passenger was stopped, and the incident, which happened two months ago, was reported to officials. But when the attendant checked back last week on the outcome, she was told her report had been lost.

Recent incidents at the Minneapolis-St. Paul international airport have also alarmed flight crews. Earlier this month, a passenger from Syria was taken into custody while carrying anti-American materials and a note suggesting he intended to commit a public suicide.

A third pilot reported watching a man of Middle Eastern descent at the same airport using binoculars to get airplane tail numbers and writing the numbers in a notebook to correspond with flight numbers.

"It's a probe. They are probing us," said a second air marshal, who confirmed that Middle Eastern men try to flush out marshals by rushing the cockpit and stopping suddenly.

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