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Jon Voight castigates Moore

 
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 12:27 am
Actually, nobody should presume to speak for God, and I am guessing in the case of Michael Moore. My guess would be that wherever Lili Riefenstahl, Tokyo Rose, Axis Sally, and Joseph Goebels are, Moore will eventually be there to keep them company.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 12:37 am
Ah, the authority on God. I'm astounded,
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 12:38 am
the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
Because despite how righties choose to interpret it, Finn, it is glaringly apparent that obviously Moore does not believe all Americans are idiots,

Is there no end to the slack you are willing to give this guy?

If I were to make the following statements:

"Blacks are shiftless"

"Homosexuals are promiscuous"

"Liberals are a-holes"

"Native Americans are drunkards."

Somehow, I have a hard time accepting that your response would be. Well, of course Finn doesn't mean all Blacks, all homosexuals, all Liberals, or all Native Americans.

You would do a great service to your points by being consistent.


(he is one) and he was speaking in general terms (perhaps you want to look that up?) that yes, many Americans sure are stupid. It's like when I say republicans suck. Most people know I don't really mean all republicans.

Most people? When you say "republicans suck," my bet is that most people figure you mean most Republicans.

Are you seriously trying to argue that because you don't, neccessarily, mean 100% of all Republicans suck when you say "republicans suck," that your statement is a prime example of moderation and good sense?

Many Americans are stupid, as A2K reveals on a daily basis, but the notion that Moore was simply pointing out a demographic fact is beyond ridiculous.


I think that Europeans are capable of catching nuance, too. Apparently more so than you are!

What nuance? The man uses a 2 X 4 to smack his fellow Americans and you have the nerve to suggest that nuance has come into plaY?

If you want to say he should perhaps choose his words more carefully, well, so should many others, including the president, whose words are much more damaging. We all speak off the cuff sometimes, don't we?

Please stop. Please stop trying to find the pony at the bottom of the pile of horse sh*t. This wasn't a slip of the tongue or a poorly chosen phrase. He deliberately pandered to the anti-American sentiments of his European audience by declaring exactly what they wanted to hear: "Americans are stupid."

Moore provides documentation in all forms for most of what he asserts.

And on it goes! What documentation has this buffoon provided to support his assertion that "Americans are dumb?"

And if Moore was simply making an observation about the general human condition, why did he feel it necessary to state "Americans are dumb?" Why not "Generally speaking, human beings are dumb?" Or do you share Moore's insipid belief that somehow Europeans, in general, are smarter and in most ways superior to Americans? If so, provide some documentation, and not of the Mooresian variety.

It is for that simple reason that I'd be more inclined to value his words than one who does not cite any evidence. Do I believe every word he might utter? No. Do I have to, in order to make my previous statement? NOPE.

It has long been established that you are inclined to value anyone whose words take a shot at your fellow Americans.

"Your reflexive disregard for the intelligence and principles of your fellow Americans?"

Nice try! I am merely admitting and agreeing that SOME Americans ARE stupid. Is there some proof otherwise? Smile I think not. So why don't you just relax and allow YOUR fellow Americans to speak without trying to twist their (my) meanings, hmm?

How big of you to admit that some Americans are dumb. Of course you don't include yourself among their number.

At some point you may realize that revealing the the meaning of a statement is not twisting it.

0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 01:09 am
One final little thought here for the night, and this is for the benefit of anybody like Michael Moore who might be inclined to think that Americans are somehow intellectually inferior to Europeans.

In 1913, Europe had gone just about an entire century without a major war and, unless something is sitting there which I've simply missed reading about, several decades without any sort of a war at all (excluding the Spanish/American war which was not fought on European soil). Between the major European powers, England, France, Germany, they pretty much had the whole world by the balls; they had it made. All they had to do was act cool, and they'd STILL have the whole world by the balls; they'd be so fat and happy they wouldn't know what to do with themselves. I mean, how hard is it to figure out that if going a hundred years without a major war has put you on top of the heap, that going 200 years without a major war would probably put you on top of a BIGGER and BETTER heap?

But, as we all know, that didn't happen. Anybody seeking to denigrate Americans needs to ask himself when the last time was that the United States, Mexico, and Canada fought a war amongst themselves for no rational reason which turned all of North America into a pig pen.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 06:18 am
I think you all are making too much Moore's observation that Americans are dumb. I think most people know that we are not dumb, but on whole most of us would rather watch "outback jack" or something like than keep up with world events and that was his only point.
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 08:33 am
Smile Of course that was it, Revel, but some people like to make everything out to be much more important than it actually is. I doubt that Europeans are now walking around convinced that Americans are stupid because Michael Moore said so!
But apparently he wounded Finn's sensibilities, the big meanie.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 09:42 am
swolf,

Did you see Fahrenheit 9/11 yet? It was quite good.

Maybe you could let some of your bitterness go when you see that his work is really quite brilliant.
0 Replies
 
astromouse
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 11:07 am
But the real question is :

Did Jon Voight ever own a Le baron?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 03:24 pm
Upon leaving the theater after viewing "Fahrenheit 9/11," I found myself deeply troubled. Not about the accusations of governmental corruption and malfeasance. Not about the disturbing connections between the Bushes and the Saudi royal family. Not about the pictures of prisoner abuse in Iraq. No, I was troubled by just one thought: "what," I asked myself, "did Jon Voight think of this movie?"

And now I know.

Thanks, swolf, you've performed a noble service.


Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Moore announced to an audience of Europeans that Americans were dumb and ignorant. He didn't say that in his opinion they were dumb and ignorant and he offered nothing in the way of supporting the contention as a fact or an opinion.

Why would he need to say that it was his opinion? Isn't it obvious from the context?

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Interestingly enough, Voight was a fair haired boy of the Left when he was joining with Jane Fonda in opposing the Vietnam war. Apparently, he's lost all intelligence and credibility now that he's appeared on Scarborough COuntry and criticized Moore.

Well, I wouldn't say he has lost all of it.
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 05:48 pm
"Why would he need to say that it was his opinion? Isn't it obvious from the context?"

One would think so, hmm?

But then, some people are colorblind. Only see black and white, and they take everything literally, assuming everyone else does too.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 08:02 pm
Moore's a lying jackass. I can't believe anyone believes him or his fictious movie.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 08:22 pm
the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
Smile Of course that was it, Revel, but some people like to make everything out to be much more important than it actually is.


LOL.

Suzy, you accusing anyone of a tendency to make everything out to be more important that it actually is is like Michael Moore accusing someone of bias.

suzy wrote:
I doubt that Europeans are now walking around convinced that Americans are stupid because Michael Moore said so!


I haven't made up my mind yet whether you intentionally distort other's arguments, or are simply unable to understand them.

As if anyone who has objected to Moore's trashing his fellow Americans in Europe base their objection on Moore "spilling the beans," and/or bespoiling the previously high regard the Euros had for Americans. The European Left, whose collective derriere Moore is desperate to kiss, has thought poorly of Americans long before Moore lurched onto the scene. He hasn't, in any way, influenced their thinking, he has merely stated what they already believe.

suzy wrote:
But apparently he wounded Finn's sensibilities, the big meanie.


I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Moore has a nasty streak in his personality, fueled by a a long simmering resentment of the dismissal he experienced at the hands of popular boys and girls during his youth. Being overweight, homely and a geek is often pretty tough on young people, and can leave them quite bitter. However, I don't see Moore as mean. Repugnant, but not mean. Repugnant not for his physicality, but for the lengths to which he will go to obtain the approval of a group of people who value him only to the extent that he is willing to rip his fellow Americans.

He reminds me of the teenage girl who is willing to join in ridiculing her younger sibling so that she might be accepted by the in crowd. I find this sort of behavior repugnant, but then I hold loyalty to be a virtue.

Before you go off on your familiar rant about blind loyalty, let me point out that there was no noble purpose served by Moore ripping his fellow citizens to the European crowds. Ignorant or not, Americans were not about to rise a fraction of a degree towards enlightenment thanks to Moore's diatribe. His was not a call to action for the purposing of righting some wrong. Of course I could be in error. Perhaps he was hoping to enlist the Europeans to perform missionary work in America.

That Michael Moore is entitled to state his opinion is not an issue. No one is advocating that he be thrown in jail or have his citizenship revoked. He has worked hard to become someone whose opinions are discussed and debated. I can't imagine that he would object to anyone reacting to something he has said - it's what he lives for.

So what was the purpose of his remarks?

He wasn't trying to enlighten the Europeans on the nature of Americans.

He wasn't trying to correct what he may have believed was a failing in the nature of Americans.

Was he providing a cautionary tale to the Europeans lest they continue their slavish admiration and mimicry of Americans? Yeah, right.

He was attempting to curry favor with his European audience; hoping to evoke the applause and acceptance he craves. Moore is certainly smart enough to know that ripping Americans goes over big with the European Left. Apparently he is also venal enough to capitalize on this knowledge.

Is his a heinous crime? Of course not. Is this one of the most important matters to come before the world in centuries? clearly not. In the overall scheme of things its a pretty trivial matter, but then how many earth shattering issues are discussed in this forum.

If it has any significance it is in the fact that very many American liberals have made something of a hero out of Moore. Linda Ronstadt isn't the only wooly headed twit to declare Moore a patriot. I would never suggest that he is a traitor, because he isn't by any stretch of the term, but neither is he a patriot, and if he defines patriotism for a sizable group of Americans, we have a problem. Patriotism need not involve flag waving and it is certainly not a blind and absolute glorification of the nation, but patriots do not rip their fellow citizens to foreign audiences for the purpose of garnering applause.

If he wasn't a famous and powerful millionaire, I might consider him sad, but since he is, I 'm left with repugnant.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 08:41 pm
joefromchicago wrote:



Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Moore announced to an audience of Europeans that Americans were dumb and ignorant. He didn't say that in his opinion they were dumb and ignorant and he offered nothing in the way of supporting the contention as a fact or an opinion.


Why would he need to say that it was his opinion? Isn't it obvious from the context?


"You are an ass."

OR

"In my opinion you are an ass."

In both instances, it is fairly obvious, to anyone reading them, that it would be my opinion that you are an ass, and yet both statements, while derogatory, are quite different in the level of their vehemence.

The first expression suggests a visceral response and an absolute declaration; the second acknowledges subjectivity and, at least, the possibility of error.

In any case, the point of my referring to opinion was that Suzy attempted to cast Moore's and Voight's comments as the same simple matter of opinion. It seems clear to me that they were not. Moore chose "You are an ass," while Voight chose "In my opinion, you are an ass," and, given their attendant implications, these choices are of significance.
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 09:03 pm
Methinks you are making a mountain out of a molehill, Finn!
I'm not going to argue it further, as it's just not important, but that was my point in the beginning anyway. Who cares what either of these guys has to say? People can make up their own minds what to believe. free speech, you know.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 09:43 pm
When they fein anger over Moore's film, it's just another tool for stifling dissent. When they pretend outrage over his remark about stupid Americans, they understand he was referencing those who accept the Bush administration uncritically, as do the European audiences. He is not there simply for applause and they know it. Moore is stalking the administration because he feels genuine outrage over the stupid policy that is creating more terrorists than it kills.
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 09:44 pm
I agree with your assesment, Edgar.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 09:51 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Moore's a lying jackass. I can't believe anyone believes him or his fictious movie.


McGentrix,

Did you see his "fictious" movie? I would think more highly of you if I were sure your opinions were based on something other than partisan prejudice.
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 09:57 pm
It seems that most of the people deeply critical of him, his movies or his books have never seen or read any of them, but rather judge based on what they hear from others who share their politics.
Does that apply to you as well, mcG?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 10:07 pm
I dunno, Suzy, I just read two rawther negative reviews of the movie in Dutch newspapers - one of 'em left-leaning too, so its not for lack of antipathy against Bush ... and I do believe the movie has had its share of negative as well as positive reviews in the States as well. So apparently there's plenty of people who did see the movie and yet still remain "deeply critical of" Moore.
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 10:09 pm
I know of one, my boss, who wasn't real keen on it, though she shares my politics. she did fall asleep during it, though, so I don't know how much she actually saw.
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