Reply Sat 26 Sep, 2015 06:45 pm
I require detailed information on how effective is long-term indoctrination ie. From a very young age, say around five years old to adolescence and beyond and what are the typical methodologies applied. This could also apply to brainwashing or similar as used in some cults. The material is required for a book I'm writing on superstition, myths, propaganda and traditions.
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Sat 26 Sep, 2015 07:20 pm
@Secular500,


As far as brainwashing, I suggest a wash n wear cycle in a mild detergent and machine drying set to gentle
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  4  
Reply Sat 26 Sep, 2015 08:00 pm
@Secular500,
You should be using Google Scholar to find this information.
coldjoint
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 26 Sep, 2015 09:05 pm
@Secular500,
Quote:
I require detailed information on how effective is long-term indoctrination


Study Islam, they are masters at it.
Secular500
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Sep, 2015 10:31 am
@jespah,
Thanks for the tip. I'll try it.
0 Replies
 
Secular500
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Sep, 2015 10:34 am
@coldjoint,
Yes, you're quite right! However, there are many others out there. What I need is how effective they are. I happen to know that many are very or extremely effective but knowing is insufficient as one requires a more adequate answer.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Sep, 2015 11:04 am
@Secular500,
Why don't you use your own experience. Everyone is indoctrinated by their parents and their society from birth into the superstitions, myths, propaganda and traditions of their culture.

Americans are no different in this than anyone else.
0 Replies
 
Secular500
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2015 06:17 am
As I have thrown off the shackles of indoctrination many years ago by questioning and researching the various types, the same cannot be said for the vast majority of mankind, whether it be through fear or comfort, they remain firmly entrenched in their beliefs which does not say much about them! It appears that each person has at least two sides, one that is more or less logical and applies critical thinking and the other that believes the most ridiculous, unprovable, untestable facts! This applies especially to scientists who qualified through stringentc research
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2015 07:16 am
@Secular500,
No you haven't thrown off the "shackles of indoctrination". People who were born up in modern Western society has a very different set of beliefs than people who were born in any other time or culture.

You really don't think that the things you were taught when you were a child by your parents and the adults around you?

Brains are flexible, especially when you are a child or infant. You were indoctrinated to live in the society/culture you found yourself in as has happened throughout history. And your brain adjusted well to this... had it not, you would have a very difficult time surviving in society. Had you been born into ancient Sparta, your brain would be programmed in a very different way. Imagine how well a person with your particular ideas and beliefs, well suited for your society today, would have fared in Ancient Rome, or as an an Aztec.

This is a good thing. The human brain adapts very well.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2015 02:48 pm
@Secular500,
Let me ask you, Secular. Do you believe that humans have basic rights? This is a common part of our indoctrination as modern Americans (or similar Western cultures).

There is no stringent research behind the idea that humans have any rights at all-- and yet, based on our indoctrination, almost all of us still feel firmly that they do.

roger
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2015 03:31 pm
@maxdancona,
That's why we have gods. So we can have god given rights.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2015 07:54 pm
@Secular500,
Mind control is not what most people believe it to be. Though the term brings to mind images reminiscent of science fiction movies in which someone is being drugged and then exposed to certain sights and sounds designed to alter their future thoughts and behavior, the truth is that mind control is everywhere. As for myself, I recall being exposed to mind control from a very early age. It started with my being taught which behaviors brought reward, and which behaviors brought punishment. From there it escalated into a constant drilling of my mind, with the intention that I fit in and appear normal.

First I learned the difference between boys and a girls (keep in mind that I’m talking about 1960). Boys had short hair while girls had long hair. Boys wore pants while girls tended to wear dresses. Boys wrestled and played with guns while girls played house and played with dolls. And the list of differences went on and on. Then came school. Every morning I had to stand with the rest of the kids, place my right hand over my heart, and say the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. I had no idea what pledge meant, nor allegiance. I also had no clue as to what the republic--for which the flag stood--was. And as far as the words “one nation under God, indivisible . . .” I did know what indivisible meant. It meant that you could walk into a room full of people, and no one would be able to see you.

I was five years old. The teacher knew that I had no idea what I was reciting and what it meant, and apparently it didn’t matter. I guess the important thing was that I repeat it over and over and over again. Soon after, it was made clear to me that I was to never . . . ever treat the flag with disrespect. Later in life I learned that you can poison the land that the flag represents, but that you had better treat the flag as if it were your own hair. So, in a sense, I was being mind-controlled to accept the idea that symbols are more real than the reality they represent.

Then came the issue of school report-cards. While it was true that you could receive a D- in every subject and still get passed on to the next grade, it was nevertheless made clear to you that you were somehow mentally inferior to the kids who received Bs and As. Conversely, it was made clear to the A and B students that they were mentally superior to the D students. The impact of that conditioning was reflected in one’s choice of playmates; generally, A-students didn’t hang out with D-students, and vice versa. Consequently, it was inevitable that each group would develop a mutual underlying contempt for each other. Social standing was also determined by financial status. If your parents had money, it was obvious by such things as the clothes you wore and the quality of your shoes. I never hung out with kids whose higher quality clothing stood in stark contrast to what I was wearing.

These things may seem innocent enough, but in fact they set the tone for the rest of our lives. Our minds were controlled in such a way that we were compelled to judge others and ourselves as being worthy or not worthy based on some criteria which was put in place and set in motion for us by our predecessors. But don’t blame them. They were no less victims of the same control by their predecessors. And the beat goes on.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2015 08:12 pm
@Glennn,
Glennn,

This "mind control" you describe... isn't this just part of being human? We evolved as social creatures. Human beings, like any other social creature, naturally form societies. For these societies to work, the people living in them need to all think the same way.

Whatever you call it, "indoctrination", "mind control", "brainwashing" or whatever... every society needs some way to make sure that people who live in it have compatible beliefs and a common understanding of what the rules of that society are.

Humans can not function with out a functioning society, and society can't function without making sure its members are indoctrinated.

A believe in Human Rights is a good example of something that we Americans are indoctrinated with. Can you imagine functioning in American society without a basic understanding that humans have "inalienable" rights?

Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2015 09:00 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
This "mind control" you describe... isn't this just part of being human?

Sure, but the mind control that I'm talking about is a perversion of the natural order. Farmers and oil companies can poison the ground of the country you live in, but the flag must never touch the ground. That's a perversion of values. Indoctrination can be abused in such a way as to make one value the symbol more than that which the symbol represents.

If a child is indoctrinated due to the capitalist system to judge another according to the clothes they wear or the grades they get, how is that a good thing? If everyone needs to think the same way in order for a society to work, then you had better not complain when you are told to go fight in a war for reasons not made altogether clear to you.

You are correct in your understanding that we all need to have a common understanding of what the rules of society are, but in no way do my beliefs need to be compatible with yours.

Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2015 09:25 pm
And in some cases, it is your duty as a human being to not think and act as the rest of the herd. For instance, when it was acceptable to deny colored people access to certain facilities, using violence if necessary, or to physically harm a homosexual, the growth of society depended on the actions of those who refused to "think the same way."

When indoctrination is such that it gets in the way of the growth of society, then it's a detriment. Learning teaches. Conformity is its own reward.

Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2015 09:31 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Humans can not function with out a functioning society, and society can't function without making sure its members are indoctrinated.

Give me an example of the type of indoctrination that society cannot function without.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 05:46 am
@Glennn,
"Natural Order" is a myth.

The things you think are "natural order" are just the things that you were indoctrinated with since you were a child. You were taught about equality of races and of women. You were taught to respect other people's property. You were taught about individual freedom. You were taught to dislike slavery and institutionalized social class.

All of these things are very specific to your society... most other societies and ages don't have the same values (or don't emphasize them).

Every functioning society has its own set of values. Most people in these functioning society believe that these values are somehow universal, either from a deity or from "natural order".

There is no natural order.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 05:53 am
@Glennn,
Quote:
Give me an example of the type of indoctrination that society cannot function without.


All of us in our society are indoctrinated to believe in human rights, that people can own property, that sex requires consent, that slavery is wrong, that you should only have one wife, that you can't kill (except in narrow circumstances), that old people have the right to live, that people can speak up against the government without punishement.

There are people who violate these values, but the vast majority of us don't. And, when these values are broken the people who go against the indoctrination are, scorned, publicly shamed and punished. (Warren Jeffs is a good example of this.)

Our society functions because the vast majority of us follow the rules of our indoctrination. Other societies have functioned equally well being indoctrinated with a very different set of values.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 06:00 am
@Glennn,
Quote:
And in some cases, it is your duty as a human being to not think and act as the rest of the herd.


How are you doing this? I am going to bet that none of your beliefs are very far from mine (or any other modern Western culture). You may have a couple of minor details... but there is no thought that you have that would shock or disgust me.

If you were in Aztec culture and started telling them that women were equal and that human sacrifice was wrong... that would be an example of "not thinking and acting as the rest of the herd". I suppose the converse would be if you in modern culture started advocating for child marriage or human sacrifice. I don't think this is what you are talking about.

There is a very small group of people indoctrinated into Western Culture who are leaving the herd and acting in a way that goes completely against the values of our shared culture. The rest of us (including me) are shocked and horrified at this. I am talking about the people choosing to leave Western society to join ISIS. Of course we can't accept such a violation of our cultural values.

I doubt you are doing anything like this. In fact you are pretty much acting the way that we, as a society, need you to act. Your indoctrination is working just fine.

0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 08:25 am
@maxdancona,
You say that natural order is a myth. Without realizing it, you are basically saying that chaos is the natural order, thereby contradicting yourself.

You are confusing the adherence to rules and laws with the dynamic of indoctrination. Laws are made and enforced in order to maintain stability within society. The indoctrination I am speaking of is that which is passively imposed upon the masses in an invisible way in order to enforce conformity. Think of it as a program if you like. People are suspicious of that which is different; they tend to fear what they cannot identify with. In the 50s and 60s, a boy did not have long hair. There was no law against having long hair, but peer pressure dictated that it was not normal for a boy. Having long hair in no way threatened the stability of society, and yet we all thought of, and accepted, the boundary as a logical one. It was not logical. It was a useless, collectively imposed indoctrination.

Pledging allegiance to what one doesn’t understand also falls into the category of what is illogical. It can cause one to feel justified, and obligated, to kill another human being even though the reasons for doing so are, as I said before, not made altogether clear to you. In fact, and for example, the war in Iraq was not necessary to the stability of society, but many have been indoctrinated to believe that it was. Acquiescing to authority can be seen as an indoctrination if it prohibits the exercise of critical thinking, and the freedom to respond to the results of that critical thinking.

I brought up the mistreatment of colored people and homosexuals as an example of a societal indoctrination. I also said that the growth of people and society depends on the willingness of some to break free of such corrupt indoctrination. Shedding Western culture and moving to join ISIS has nothing to do with what I’m talking about.

You’ve been indoctrinated to believe that your identity is somehow dependent upon whether or not you keep the past alive. You are mistaken.
 

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