Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 06:25 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Saying this doesn't resolve the big problem with you argument. If you say that your understanding of what is right and wrong is based on "consideration of life" then that means that anyone with a different understanding is not basing it on "consideration of life". This doesn't really explain why your understanding is any better than anyone else's understanding.

I’ve made it clear that what I wouldn’t want done to me, I won’t do to another. You wonder if my position has to do with cultural indoctrination. I would ask you if doing to another what you wouldn’t want done to yourself makes sense to you. Does it? If not, explain why.

As far as marriages between adult men and preteen girls, I've already stated that preteen girls are not yet mature--physically or emotionally. I understand that you entertain the idea that your objection to such a thing might be unjustified. Explain.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 06:30 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
I’ve made it clear that what I wouldn’t want done to me, I won’t do to another. You wonder if my position has to do with cultural indoctrination.


This is the Golden Rule. It is from the Bible. It has been taught in American churches and schools since before the American Revolution and is about is much of a cliched part of American culture as I could imagine.

Every American has known the Golden Rule since childhood.

Of course it makes sense to me. I was brought up as an American. It is as much a part of my indoctrination as it is a part of yours.



Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 06:33 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Saying this doesn't resolve the big problem with you argument. If you say that your understanding of what is right and wrong is based on "consideration of life" then that means that anyone with a different understanding is not basing it on "consideration of life".

Would you describe a consideration of life as the act of not having a consideration of life? Perhaps you should explain what consideration means to you.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 06:36 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
As far as marriages between adult men and preteen girls, I've already stated that preteen girls are not yet mature--physically or emotionally. I understand that you entertain the idea that your objection to such a thing might be unjustified. Explain.


I feel the same way about this issue as you do. Again, this is not surprising. My indoctrination is almost certainly the same as yours. According to my indoctrination, this activity is complete unjustified.

My goal is for us to look beyond our indoctrination and to consider the perspective of other cultures. There is no denying that there were other perfectly functioning cultures that encouraged the marriage between men and preteen girls.

If the culture is functioning even though it has practices that are strange or abhorrent to people with our social indoctrination, who are we to judge? What makes us so sure that our culture is superior to theirs?

Today is Columbus Day. The Spanish Conquistadors faced exactly this issue, indigenous people were acting in a way that was against the European idea of the "natural order". In the issue of polygamy you and I are on the side of the Conquistadors. The Conquistadors solution was to force people to give up their own culture in favor of European cultural practices.

I don't think they had any right to do this.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 06:37 pm
@Glennn,
I have the same indoctrination that you have. My idea about "consideration of life" is almost certainly the same as your idea.

My goal is for us to look beyond our own indoctrination and consider the perspective of people from different cultures.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 06:38 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Of course it makes sense to me. I was brought up as an American.

Are you implying that the only reason it makes sense to you is because you were brought up as an American? Really? Would you consider it sane to want others to do to you what you wouldn't want to do to them? Do you consider the desire to hurt others the consideration of a sound mind?

Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 06:40 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
There is no denying that there were other perfectly functioning cultures that encouraged the marriage between men and preteen girls.

Well sure, who was there to complain? The emotionally immature preteen? Sure . . .
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 06:44 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
Are you implying that the only reason it makes sense to you is because you were brought up as an American?


Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. If you made this same argument in Nepal during the middle ages, this reasoning wouldn't make any sense to anyone. Different cultures have different values... and this particular idea is a moral cliche that make sense to us because it is an an very common and core idea in our society.

You think your indoctrination represents some sort of universal truth. That is an illusion.

Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 06:49 pm
@maxdancona,
Ah, so because you are an American, you believe that treating others as you yourself would want to be treated is the right way to be. But at the same time, you recognize that there are places where is it just as well to treat others as you yourself would not want to be treated. Is that your position?
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 06:55 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You think your indoctrination represents some sort of universal truth. That is an illusion.

Once again, you are saying that my consideration for life is due to cultural indoctrination even though I have explained that I see the virtue in not hurting others just as surely as I see that I don't like being hurt.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 06:57 pm
@Glennn,
That question doesn't make sense to me.

Because I am an American, I think in the same way that you think. When you recite the Golden Rule to me (which I have heard since I was 2) it makes perfect sense to me. And it works within the society I find myself.

In other societies people would have difficulty even understanding the Golden Rule. It wouldn't make sense to them. They have other moral standards (which I claim are just as moral) that you and I would have difficulty understanding. Read about other cultures, particularly the ones that allow child marriages (including indigenous cultures that today should be about).

I am asking you to step outside of your indoctrination to view cultures with very different ideas of right and wrong as equal to your own.

Stepping outside of your indoctrination means looking at things from another perspective without judging.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 07:03 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
Once again, you are saying that my consideration for life is due to cultural indoctrination


My consideration for life is due to cultural indoctrination. The consideration of life of all the Americans I have met are is due to cultural indoctrination. The consideration of life is part of our literature, and our TV shows and the books we read and what our teachers tell us.

Maybe your consideration for life isn't due to cultural indoctrination. But you would be the only one, and the fact that your beliefs are almost the same as the rest of us is a pretty big coincidence.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 07:05 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
That question doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah, I get that!

I don't think that we think in the same way. You have expressed your belief that the issue of whether or not someone is actually treating someone else badly is a simple matter of geographical location. I disagree.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 07:09 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
your beliefs are almost the same as the rest of us is a pretty big coincidence.

That is an assumption on your part.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2015 09:57 pm
@Glennn,
The only belief that you offered is a pretty standard, and comfortable belief in modern Western society. People who are cruel to animals (such as Michael Vick) are despised and punished.

Do you have any other example?

(The people who grew up in Western culture and are now leaving to join ISIS would be a good example... but from what you have written here, I don't suspect you will do that).
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Oct, 2015 07:41 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The only belief that you offered is a pretty standard, and comfortable belief in modern Western society.

The fact that others besides myself are against cruelty to animals does nothing to bolster your idea that such a sentiment is due to cultural indoctrination.

Your contention is that it is only our cultural indoctrination that causes us to believe that being cruel to other life forms--including adult males marrying preteen girls--is wrong. You seem genuinely oblivious to the fact that you are supporting the position that it is actually okay to cause another living being to suffer because what matters is culture, not the sufferer.
0 Replies
 
coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Oct, 2015 12:58 pm
@Secular500,
This is a great and important subject, but I think you could view indoctrination not as an exception but as a rule in everyday life and throughout our lives.

The mind is subject to indoctrination in any relaxed, i.e. hypnotic state, emotional state, or young, immature stage of life before the mind is fully formed and especially at an early age mainly before the age of 5.

An individual in any of these states: relaxed, emotional, or immature is open to indoctrination. The very young--before age 5 or so are easily indoctrinated by inculcation into religious and political beliefs to the point of seeming axiomatic later in life.

Television has perfected the art of indoctrination for profit. Melodramatic fiction programs arouse the viewer into an emotional state and then cut to a commercial at that exact moment. The message and product name are repeated over and over to implant the message into the viewer, and it works, superbly. Companies spend millions for the most emotionally-packed--not quality--shows. Another example is football, the only sport still shown on broadcast free television. The cut to commercial occurs after a touchdown, field goal, injury, or other emotionally-packed moment. And Budweiser or Miller sells, boy does it! Is it because the beer is better?

Hypnosis itself is nothing more than a relaxed state of mind, subject to indoctrination but in its positive side. Subjects can reverse indoctrination and bad habits by a controlled re-indoctrination, an agreed upon inculcation or repeat of the formulated message while in a relaxed state of mind. Another type of therapy is redecision therapy whereby the patient with the help of the therapist reformulates a decision to counter a bad decision made earlier in life. When the patient in the course of therapy gets into a high emotional state, e.g., deep crying, the therapist has the patient repeat the reformulation over and over. And it works, very well.
0 Replies
 
 

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