10
   

How important are Hispanic voters in the 2016 Elections?

 
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Dec, 2015 08:25 pm
@Brandon9000,
I love irony Brandon... and I love your post.

Quote:
I would think that Hispanics, like any other group, contain many fair minded people who will not side with someone merely because he is from the same ethnic group.


What you are saying here is that for the great majority of Hispanics to disagree with you about immigration (as it is easy to prove through polling, election results or just talking to them) means that they are not "fair minded" (your words).

Then you say that I am am "name-calling" for suggesting that you are displaying a political bias.

Do you see why this amuses me so?

(For the record, most Hispanics feel that the using the word "illegal" as a noun to refer to a human being is racist even if that human being has broken immigration laws. You can defend your use of the word (even though that word is not used to describe White people who break other laws), but I am just relaying the opinion of most Hispanics. )
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Dec, 2015 08:32 pm
@maxdancona,
The biggest mistake you are making Brandon, is to forget that everyone who gets to vote is an American with the same rights and same political power that you have.

When you say the word "American" you are forgetting that there are many Americans who disagree with your position, in fact there are many Americans who think your opinions are offensive and against our national values. The fact is the majority of Americans, according to polls and election results, want immigration reform that includes a pathway to citizenship for people here illegally now... something that you would never accept.

If we only counted White male votes as American votes, then you may well have your way. But, sorry to say Brandon, all of us get to vote equally whether we are White or male or not.

That is why the Republican candidates are in such a wonderfully difficult spot. The fact that they have to appease you to win the primary (because White angry males dominate the Republican primary) makes it nearly impossible for them to win in the general election where there are a significant number of Blacks, Asians, Hispanics and women.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Dec, 2015 12:49 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I love irony Brandon... and I love your post.

Quote:
I would think that Hispanics, like any other group, contain many fair minded people who will not side with someone merely because he is from the same ethnic group.


What you are saying here is that for the great majority of Hispanics to disagree with you about immigration (as it is easy to prove through polling, election results or just talking to them) means that they are not "fair minded" (your words).

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that siding with someone merely because he is from your ethnic group would not be fair minded and I assume that there are plenty of fair minded Hispanic people.

maxdancona wrote:
Then you say that I am am "name-calling" for suggesting that you are displaying a political bias.

Do you see why this amuses me so?

No, you also said that I was displaying a personal bias, which sounds to me like you're calling me personally a racist.

maxdancona wrote:
(For the record, most Hispanics feel that the using the word "illegal" as a noun to refer to a human being is racist even if that human being has broken immigration laws. You can defend your use of the word (even though that word is not used to describe White people who break other laws), but I am just relaying the opinion of most Hispanics. )

If someone is in the country illegally, then he is very sensitive if he objects to being called an "illegal." Why doesn't he just obey the law and then the whole question won't arise in the first place?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Dec, 2015 12:59 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The biggest mistake you are making Brandon, is to forget that everyone who gets to vote is an American with the same rights and same political power that you have.

When you say the word "American" you are forgetting that there are many Americans who disagree with your position, in fact there are many Americans who think your opinions are offensive and against our national values. The fact is the majority of Americans, according to polls and election results, want immigration reform that includes a pathway to citizenship for people here illegally now... something that you would never accept.

When did I use the word "American" again? I don't recall using it in this thread. When did I say that another voter didn't have the same rights as I do? I can't find anything like that in my posts. What I do remember doing was posting my own personal opinion. I can do that here, right? And now, I can't post my opinion because "the majority of Americans" disagree with me? I can only post majority opinions? I thought I got to state my opinion here whatever it is. I'm sorry if people find it "offensive" that I want the citizens' laws on the books enforced.

maxdancona wrote:
If we only counted White male votes as American votes, then you may well have your way. But, sorry to say Brandon, all of us get to vote equally whether we are White or male or not.

That is why the Republican candidates are in such a wonderfully difficult spot. The fact that they have to appease you to win the primary (because White angry males dominate the Republican primary) makes it nearly impossible for them to win in the general election where there are a significant number of Blacks, Asians, Hispanics and women.

So, what does me being a white male have to do with it? This is certainly not anything that I mentioned. You are the only one who mentioned the race of the posters in this thread. And when did I say that I don't want people who aren't white males to get an equal vote? Now you're making up my opinions and telling them to me?
Blickers
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Dec, 2015 01:31 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote Brandon:
Quote:
I thought I got to state my opinion here whatever it is.


Of course you do. And I sincerely hope that you continue to post these opinions when you are on the computer, and speak out these opinions as often as possible when you are away from the computer.

We Democrats thank you for the Hispanic votes you are driving away to us.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Fri 25 Dec, 2015 08:41 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon wrote:
The United States, like every other country, has the right to enforce immigration laws and people who have entered or remained in the country illegally can fairly be called "illegals."


Brandon, when you say "The United States... has the right to enforce immigration laws..." you are basically assuming that "The United States" wants to enforce immigration laws. The question is, who represents "The United States"?

I don't see evidence that the United States (outside of the angry mostly White people in the Republican party) has any desire to enforce the immigration laws. After all, the United States did elect Barack Obama, convincingly, to the White House two times knowing full well his stated intention to change immigration laws.

I will tell you want Brandon. Let's have an election. You put up a candidate who wants to deport all of the "illegals"(sic), and my side will put up a candidate who wants to provide a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants.

And let's accept the fact that all Americans, whether they are White or Hispanic or Black or Muslim or anything else, have the right to their own opinion on the direction America should go and that even those of us who vote for amnesty are doing so believing that that is the path that best represents the values and the interests of the United States that we are a part of.

Let's have the election decide.


Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 10:58 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Brandon wrote:
The United States, like every other country, has the right to enforce immigration laws and people who have entered or remained in the country illegally can fairly be called "illegals."


Brandon, when you say "The United States... has the right to enforce immigration laws..." you are basically assuming that "The United States" wants to enforce immigration laws. The question is, who represents "The United States"?

I don't see evidence that the United States (outside of the angry mostly White people in the Republican party) has any desire to enforce the immigration laws. After all, the United States did elect Barack Obama, convincingly, to the White House two times knowing full well his stated intention to change immigration laws.

I will tell you want Brandon. Let's have an election. You put up a candidate who wants to deport all of the "illegals"(sic), and my side will put up a candidate who wants to provide a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants.

And let's accept the fact that all Americans, whether they are White or Hispanic or Black or Muslim or anything else, have the right to their own opinion on the direction America should go and that even those of us who vote for amnesty are doing so believing that that is the path that best represents the values and the interests of the United States that we are a part of.

Let's have the election decide.

Yes. Everyone has the right to express any opinion publicly, and the only valid way to decide what does happen is by election. The losers get another chance next time. I am completely committed to the idea that this is the only correct way.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 11:15 am
@maxdancona,
This bothers me. I've yet to see a single poll that reflects this post. In almost every single poll (every poll I have looked at but too many of you literalists out there to say every poll) the majority polled want to control illegal immigration. Please document your evidence, or lack of evidence, that no one besides angry white people want to control illegal immigration.

I'd post the polls, but since I no longer know who the "reliable liberal sources" are anymore, you can use google as well as I can.
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 02:08 pm
@McGentrix,
You must be talking to Republicans only then.
Okay, here's a poll done by CBS/New York Times from Oct 21-25.

http://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2015/10/27/1305e5e2-7e62-4e45-9a7c-b2af4ecd3e27/301600880327946422aec4c2fac48e4f/09-illegal-immigrants-in-us.jpg
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 02:41 pm
@Blickers,
1. I'm not sure I believe it no matter what CBS and NYT, both notoriously liberal, claim. They use their news articles to push opinion in the way they want it to go.
2. Just let a Republican get in for a few years and the man in the street will drift back to the right.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 06:35 pm
@McGentrix,
Here is one from Fox news (it's two years old but it's the latest I could find and I doubt public opinion has changed much).

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/28/fox-news-poll-66-percent-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegal-immigrants-with.html

Quote:
The latest Fox News poll shows a majority of American voters believes illegal immigrants should be given a chance to apply for citizenship, as long as they meet certain requirements.

The poll asked voters what government policy should be toward illegal immigrants currently in the U.S. Two thirds -- 66 percent -- think there should be a path to citizenship, but only if the individual meets requirements such as paying back taxes, learning English and passing a background check.

Some 17 percent say all illegal immigrants should be deported, and another 13 percent prefer a guest worker program that would allow immigrants to remain in the U.S. to work, but only for a limited time.

Majorities of Republicans (56 percent), independents (69 percent) and Democrats (74 percent) believe the government should allow a path to citizenship, as do majorities of whites (63 percent) and non-whites (75 percent).

Republicans (22 percent) are somewhat more likely than independents (15 percent) and Democrats (14 percent) to favor deporting all illegal immigrants.
Blickers
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 06:59 pm
@Brandon9000,
The right wing media has done a wonderfully Pavlovian job on their audience. By convincing right wingers that they must ONLY pay attention to sources that are committed to conservative causes, they ensure that their audience is now committed to the conservative camp forever. Talk about a moneymaker.

McGentrix asked for polls, I gave him a poll from a couple of months ago. And I should point out that CBS and the NY Times gave fairly accurate predictions as to how the 2012 election went, so it is not all propaganda, much as the right wing media would love to be able to claim so.
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 07:02 pm
@maxdancona,
Ahem. I posted a CBS/NYTimes poll from Oct 21-25 supporting your position, and in response you said the only poll you could find was two years ago. Like I never posted anything at all. (Sob!) I never get any respect on this forum.

http://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2015/10/27/1305e5e2-7e62-4e45-9a7c-b2af4ecd3e27/301600880327946422aec4c2fac48e4f/09-illegal-immigrants-in-us.jpg

More information on this page:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cbsnyt-poll-gop-voters-have-deep-concerns-about-government/
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 07:04 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

The right wing media has done a wonderfully Pavlovian job on their audience. By convincing right wingers that they must ONLY pay attention to sources that are committed to conservative causes, they ensure that their audience is now committed to the conservative camp forever. Talk about a moneymaker.

McGentrix asked for polls, I gave him a poll from a couple of months ago. And I should point out that CBS and the NY Times gave fairly accurate predictions as to how the 2012 election went, so it is not all propaganda, much as the right wing media would love to be able to claim so.

This isn't specifically related to polling, but CNN and many other new sources choose to write the stories and present them from the point of view that will advance their political agendas. When is the last time you saw a CNN news article with a title like like "Trump Scores Points at Campaign Rally" or "Has Hillary Finally Gone Too Far?" There are many liberal news sources that are not very close at all to objective, impartial news reporting. What you guys always say about Fox News is true about any number of liberal news organizations.
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 07:11 pm
@Brandon9000,
Here's a CNN article that had slightly critical remarks about Trump but also said how well he was doing.

Quote:
Donald Trump brought 30,000 supporters from deep red Alabama to a Friday night pep rally in a football stadium, the latest sign that the Republican front-runner has broad, nationwide strength.

Over an hour of often rambling remarks, the New York businessman reveled in the crowd size while he offered them his usual menu of patriotic pledges and carefree criticism of the media, his opponents and political correctness that he said his crowd similarly despised.

"We've gotten an amazing reception," Trump said as he began his remarks, turning his back to the podium at the Ladd-Peebles Stadium and pointing to the rafters behind him. "Has this been crazy? Man!"

The event had the trappings of a big Friday night high school match-up. Trump flew by the stadium in his private jet shortly before 6 p.m., doing a loop around the arena before landing. The fly-by was announced over the stadium's loudspeaker to cheers.

The event was previously planned to be held at the nearby Civic Center but was moved to the 43,000-seat Ladd-Peebles Stadium -- a venue normally home to high school football games -- to accommodate the crowd. The City of Mobile confirmed late Friday that 30,000 people attended.

"It was one of the greatest events Mobile ever put on aside from Mardi Gras," said Colby Cooper, Mayor Sandy Stimpson's chief of staff.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/21/politics/donald-trump-rally-mobile-alabama/

So I don't share your belief that mainstream sources are unfair to conservatives.

0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 08:19 pm
@Blickers,
Quote:
Most voters continue to believe the federal government is not interested in stopping illegal immigration, and support for state rather than federal enforcement of immigration laws is now at its highest level in several years.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 55% of Likely U.S. Voters still think that the policies and practices of the federal government encourage people to enter the United States illegally. Just half that many (27%) disagree, while 18% are not sure.


Immigration Update
Support Grows for State Enforcement of Immigration Laws
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 08:22 pm
@McGentrix,
That poll didn't even ask the question we are discussing McGentrix.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 08:27 pm
@McGentrix,
Incidently... I am strongly pro-immigrant and I believe that people here illegally should be given a straightforward pathway to citizenship.

I would answer yes to the question that the government policies encourage illegal immigration. I would like the US government to liberalize immigration laws so that people could come legally.

I don't think that this poll (which would include me as a "yes" vote) is relevant in this dicussion about whether many Hispanics will vote for Republicans (which they won't) or whether people who answer "yes" will vote Republican (no way in hell in my case).
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 09:52 pm
@maxdancona,
I am addressing your comment
Quote:
I don't see evidence that the United States (outside of the angry mostly White people in the Republican party) has any desire to enforce the immigration laws.


I say it's complete bullshit.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 10:24 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Incidently... I am strongly pro-immigrant...

I am also strongly pro-immigrant. I believe that we should welcome immigrants to our country and do everything we can to help them fit in and be happy here. I am only against the illegal immigrants.
 

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