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Is this the end game for Bolivarian Socialism in Venezuela

 
 
ehBeth
 
  0  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2018 10:59 am
@InfraBlue,
correct
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  4  
Reply Fri 25 Jan, 2019 07:52 pm
I agree with these tweets by Bernie Sanders:

"The Maduro government has waged a violent crackdown on Venezuelan civil society, violated the constitution by dissolving the National Assembly and was re-elected last year in an election many observers said was fraudulent. The economy is a disaster and millions are migrating.
The United States should support the rule of law, fair elections and self-determination for the Venezuelan people. We must condemn the use of violence against unarmed protesters and the suppression of dissent.
But we must learn the lessons of the past and not be in the business of regime change or supporting coups—as we have in Chile, Guatemala, Brazil & the DR. The US has a long history of inappropriately intervening in Latin American nations; we must not go down that road again".

He received some criticism by extremists.
I don't understand why any American can back the Maduro dictatorship.

And I don't get why anybody could be in favor of an armed US intervention,.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jan, 2019 07:13 am
@fbaezer,
Quote:
And I don't get why anybody could be in favor of an armed US intervention,.

Because in today's world, if nothing external intervenes, the outcome will be determined by a coin toss.

Not that I'm in favor of tipping the scale with anything other than my words or internal decisions, I say let the chips fall where they may.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sat 26 Jan, 2019 12:07 pm
@fbaezer,
fbaezer wrote:

…. The United States should support the rule of law, fair elections and self-determination for the Venezuelan people. We must condemn the use of violence against unarmed protesters and the suppression of dissent.
But we must learn the lessons of the past and not be in the business of regime change or supporting coups—as we have in Chile, Guatemala, Brazil & the DR. The US has a long history of inappropriately intervening in Latin American nations; we must not go down that road again".

He received some criticism by extremists.
I don't understand why any American can back the Maduro dictatorship.

And I don't get why anybody could be in favor of an armed US intervention,.


In view of the misery inflicted on the Venezuelan people by the authoritarian, corrupt, incompetent and grossly ineffective architects of the "Bolivarian" revolution, I believe it is a more than a little premature to trot out the largely exaggerated "inappropriate" (whatever that means) interventions of the United States Interventions in South American politics. While a case cam be made for the predatory US interventions in Mexico, the others listed all yielded better outcomes for the people of Chile & Brazil . The Central American Republics are a different issue - all socially divided, corrupt and ineffective. Though the main issues in each are internal and the responsibility of local elites, both Mexico and the United States have contributed to the disorder there, though often with good intentions.

With respect to Venezuela the United States has indeed supported the rule of law, fair elections and self-determination for the Venezuelan people, and has done so despite the evident hostility of a tyrannical Venezuelan government that has engaged in actions directly threatening to the United States - though generally with the same incompetence that that done so much harm to the Venezuelan people.

The Chavez/Maduro regime has had the foresight to include senior military officers in the corruption, expropriation of property, criminal drug smuggling and related actions of the government. As a result it currently appears that the Venezuelan military will continue to support the hapless tyranny there. In addition there is the factor of the Cuban intelligence and police presence in Venezuela. Cuba depends economically on the large subsidies it gets from the Bolivarian government and is now intervening in Venezuelan affairs in a very direct way - though no one has addressed that. What may result from all this is as yet unclear, however, a very bloody uprising is a real possibility.

In these circumstances it seems appropriate for those who would trot out the litany of previous, peaceful US interventions in Chile & Brazil, to address just what should be the threshold for intervention in Venezuela.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jan, 2019 08:27 am
@fbaezer,
I agree completely. My son preferred the response of Jeremy Corbyn, who called and congratulated Maduro. I thought he took it too far.

0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 Jan, 2019 09:37 am
@fbaezer,
fbaezer wrote:

I agree with these tweets by Bernie Sanders:

"The Maduro government has waged a violent crackdown on Venezuelan civil society, violated the constitution by dissolving the National Assembly and was re-elected last year in an election many observers said was fraudulent. The economy is a disaster and millions are migrating.
The United States should support the rule of law, fair elections and self-determination for the Venezuelan people. We must condemn the use of violence against unarmed protesters and the suppression of dissent.
But we must learn the lessons of the past and not be in the business of regime change or supporting coups—as we have in Chile, Guatemala, Brazil & the DR. The US has a long history of inappropriately intervening in Latin American nations; we must not go down that road again".

He received some criticism by extremists.
I don't understand why any American can back the Maduro dictatorship.

And I don't get why anybody could be in favor of an armed US intervention,.


I agree. I posted the same information on my thread.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2019 03:25 pm
@edgarblythe,
Venezuela is an economic basket case. Solving the hyperinflation issue alone will be an enormous task, which, in view of the collapse of the domestic economy and the flight of the business owners and skilled employees of manufacturing and service companies expropriated by the socialist government, will require the quick infusion of enormous capital -- from where???? The Bolivarian regime has exhausted nearly all of the liquid assets of the country in futile efforts to sustain their socialist paradise, and cover their own asses..

The management and technical competence of PDVSTA has collapsed under the corrupt rule of party functionaries, and more recently under military officers beholden to Maduro. Most other domestic companies have collapsed by direct government management or by their inability to import needed raw materials and/or the absurd price controls that made production economically impossible. Rebuilding both will be a challenging task that will likely take years to accomplish.

My impression is that our government sees Maduro as vulnerable, and to avoid civil war and bloodshed is using the orchestrated mass international recognition of the National Assembly leader as interim President, accompanied by sanctions to hasten Maduro's departure. Whether this will succeed or not is as yet unclear.

I frankly hope we take no additional actions either in the needed regime change or the recovery that may follow. We didn't dig this hole and we shouldn't try to fill it.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sat 2 Feb, 2019 10:12 am
News reports this morning describe the defection of a senior Venezuelan Air Force General, Yanez Rodriguez, who has circulated a video announcing his support for an " imminent return to Democracy' and recognition of the interim President Juan Guido, the current elected head of the National Assembly, now marginalized by President Maduro. Rodriguez is also reported to have confirmed that Maduro has two aircraft positioned to take him out of the country ( either a long trip to Iran or a short one to Cuba) .

This may be a telling indicator of the end for Maduro, however the defection of an equivalent Army commander in direct command of troops, if it occurs, would be an even stronger one.
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Feb, 2019 04:03 pm
When will Americans learn that, in Spanish speaking countries, people have two last names, and are usually known for their FIRST last name?
So, it’s General Yañez, not Rodríguez.
Just at it is dictator Maduro, not Moro. Fidel Castro, not Ruz. Hugo Chávez, not Frías.

It’s not that complicated, is it?
roger
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Feb, 2019 06:40 pm
@fbaezer,
Not complicated for a man's name, but what if they live in the US, and adopt the US convention. It's at least confusing for Chinese names.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2019 08:57 am
@fbaezer,
Thumbs down for nitpicking
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2019 09:20 am
The fate of Citgo/American jobs.

https://twitter.com/CNBCWEX/status/1092752342989066241
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2019 05:04 pm
As usual the Trump government couldent care less about common citizens grevinces. Its all about oil. Just as it was in Iran, Syria, and the rest of the oil producing countries the u s interfeares with.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2019 05:27 pm
@Leadfoot,
Oh, come on.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2019 11:55 am
@roger,
I do, occasionally.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  4  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2019 12:04 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

As usual the Trump government couldent care less about common citizens grevinces. Its all about oil. Just as it was in Iran, Syria, and the rest of the oil producing countries the u s interfeares with.
Whose grievances are you referring to? Those of the Venezuelan people, or your own?

In the case of Venezuela their economy is virtually all about oil as the Bolivarian government has destroyed most other domestic economic activity in the country.

Most of our sanctions involve ensuring that the illegitimate (and highly corrupt) Maduro government doesn't get its hands on any of the remaining liquid assets of the country. All of this of course assumes the new government itself is free of corruption: something we hope is true, but can find out only by waiting. Certainly the corrupt incompetence of the Maduro government has made this a good bet -- almost anything else will be better.
0 Replies
 
 

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