??? Helping baby sleep through the night ???

I know I *just* recommended Dr. Sears, I'm not on their payroll or anything really, I just referred to "The Baby Book" over and over and over again when I was where you are now.

Anyway, here's the (a) relevant page:

https://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070200.asp

I wish I could remember specifics of what we did and what worked -- it's a blur, I tell ya. I remember "dry as toast" (don't be interesting, at all, when they wake up -- just be there) but I think that might come later. It sounds like you're not breastfeeding? That affects things a lot, too (different advice if you are or are not.)

I'm sure someone with a clearer memory of these things will come along soon. (Do these memories come back at some point? Or do you have to do it over and over again before the info sticks around?)

Hehehe.. i think repetition is best for blurred memories during a newborns first months of life because neither of you sleep very well.
I was breastfeeding her.. then I got an infection at a surgical site and was put on heavy antibiotics that 'dried me up' literally. After 3 days even with a pump I had nothing. So she went from breast to bottle in 4 days. But that was 2 months ago. So i know it isnt the change that could be affecting her now.
I have had her on the same bed time ritual since she was one month old.
We start with a shallow warm bath ( 10 minutes ) , then on her changing table, I dry her off, diaper her, then take lotion and rub her whole body down slowly and talk quietly. ( about 15 minutes ) , Roll her up in her blanket nice and snug , then take her bed time bottle, sit in a rocking chair, lights out and feed her . When she is starting to get drowsy I lay her in her bed and she works her self to sleep. It took a while to get her used to a routine.. but I can do that ANY time and she is asleep the second her head hits her bed.
Even if I have her up late for what ever reason, or if she has already fallen asleep, I do her night time ritual ALWAYS.
When she wakes up at night, i do NOT get her out of her bed, I dont talk to her, and I avoid 85-90% of eye contact. I feed her her bottle, then sit her up in her bed , pat her back until she burps, then lay her back and she returns to sleep.
That has never changed. I was smart in starting a bed time ritual early. ;-) It has more then paid off. I just cant keep her asleep..... ??? Her doc says that she can actually get TOO much food if she continues to eat on schedule instead of eating only when she is hungry..
im going to go read this web site you gave me. I have learned from experience you know what you are talking about soz!! ;-)

I can see no way to break this pattern other than allowing the baby to cry for a while. The sooner you do it, the easier it will be to break the baby of this pattern. Perhaps you can talk with your M-I-L ahead of time and give the warning. It is definitely worth it to loose a couple of nights sleep (and it usually only takes a few nights at the most) to break a baby of this pattern. Dr. Ferber's book about Baby Sleep Patterns/Habits was recommended to me from my baby's doctor. He is a pediatrician at Boston's Children's Hospital and specializing in children's sleep disorders.

Basically you let the baby cry for 5 minutes, walk in say some comforting words and walk out. You slightly increase time you "check" on the baby. Some people have difficulty because you do have to let the baby cry without picking him/her up. But after two-three nights (at least for us and this was an older child), it worked.

Shewolfnm makes some great points - a consistent bed time routine works wonders.

This parenting advice is tricky -- I think you have to have a little bit of remove to be really good at it. Noddy is the absolute master (mistress?) of this stuff. I have a harder time because I have rather strong convictions about a lot of things, but don't want to be judgemental. For example, I see "Ferber" and I cringe. But I know that other people see "Sears" or "attachment parenting" and cringe, too. Whatever works.

Again, I very much agree with what the Sears' have to say, which I already linked to and so won't repeat. Another recommendation is "The No-Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantley.

It does sound like you've had a great start with teaching your daughter how to sleep, shewolfnm, that's great.

Good luck!

One thing about Ferber -- you have a couple of months at least to decide whether you want to go that route, as he does not recommend that his method be used for infant under 6 months old:



http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SleepProblems

Also a very good approach is to ask your child's doctor. They are usually the best source and will give you different types of perspectives as depending on the parents and babies which method works best. As everyone of us is different and what works for one baby may not work for another. That is why I choose Dr. Ferber. My doctor gave that advice as well as every parent I know that has had sleep issues with their babies or young children suggested the same book.

As I said it is not for every one as you do have to allow your baby to cry for short amounts of time which can be very difficult. Not that I used this method for my youngest baby, I didn't need to because after reading the book and learning about children sleep patterns, I was able to start "teaching" my infant to fall asleep by herself starting on day one. She began sleeping through the night at one month old.

Just a bit of balance, my pediatrician was against it, and the people I know IRL who have tried it were very disappointed. I used to participate in a parenting board that was absolutely rife with Ferber failures -- that, and the links to research on drawbacks to the method that were part of those discussions are the main ways I formed my current opinions. (The rest came from my early childhood education textbooks.) Still a tiny sample, to be sure, which doesn't prove anything, but just FYI.

Asking your pediatrician is definitely a good idea. :-)

I have talked to my daughter's doctor. I asked him if it was possible that she may be ' over eating ' because of her night eating. he said that she was doing very well, was recieving all the nutrients she needed and that it would not compromise her growth to stop feeding her at night. in fact he suggested it so as to stop the night time pattern.
I have used a minor form of the cry it out method before. But I usually only allow her to cry about 1-2 minutes before I check on her. That is when she is napping. Sometimes she wakes herself up by hitting her self in the face ( very cute! )
and i was always running to her and completely distubing her ability to go back to sleep to the point that she relied on me coming in at certain times to get her. She was loosing nap times and not getting enough day time sleep because of it. Now i just wait. If she is still crying after about 2 minutes then i know she really needs me. If she isnt, then I know she was able to work her way back to sleep. Yes it was VERY hard for me to let her cry even for a second , but in her case it was beneficial. I can see how that may work at night considering I have been able to modify it to fit her needs before.
I told MIL about it yesterday. I said that having a new baby in the house ment that everyone would at one time or another loose some sleep. I also said that it was time for me to be getting BACK to some sleep. She is 4 months old and it is time for her to learn to sleep by herself. Im sorry if this is going to be an inconvience to you, but you have to give me room to mother my daughter. I promised MIL that I would start working on Jillian's sleeping on friday night since both her and my husband have weekends off work. I figure by monday night they will either be used to the interruptions, able to ignore the interruptions, or Jillian will be sleeping undisturbed. I wasnt rude to her.. I just stated a fact. Everyone knows that babies mean no sleep. heheh. And since my baby and myself live in the same house with her, she was just going to have to leave some crying and some noise alone so I can do my job.
> crossing fingers <
I hope this works!

Here was another great way to get a young baby to sleep - however your's may or may not be too old already. It is a thin mat with two cushiony Velcro triangles and a half oval type that fit around the head of the baby. You arrange the items so they enclose the baby on each side and around the head. It helps keep the baby in place so s/he does not turn over and also gives the tight feeling of the womb. It also comes with the tape of sounds from the womb. It worked great for my first baby (after I already developed bad sleeping behaviors with her).

I have read up on Dr. Sears too, but found Dr. Ferber's technique worked best for us. The one argument I hear from those that prefer Dr. Sears is that do not want to let their baby "cry it out." These parents assume that this is the Dr. Ferber's technique. It is and it is not. You do not let your baby cry for hours on end. You allow a baby to cry for a few minutes. You go in and say comforting words so the baby knows you are there and learns that you will come back - to help with the separation anxiety. The book always says to return in an amount of time that is comfortable for both of you.

With our first we did let baby sleep with us as Dr. Sears recommends, however, after a few months, baby moved around too much and woke us up constantly. Mom and Dad are not as effective when they do not get enough sleep. Our child's doctor always said it is fine to have baby sleep with you as long as you are comfortable with it and sleep o-k. It was when we were no longer able to sleep with the baby that my doctor suggested Dr. Ferber's technique. The only downside to Dr. Sears (as long as you are fine with a baby sleeping in your bed), there is no harm at all and I loved snuggling with my baby, is it does get to a point where baby moves too much. Then it takes longer to get the baby to "learn" how to fall asleep on her own. My youngest, now 22 months, has had to be picked up maybe three or four times since she turned one month old during the night. We started her right away sleeping in her own crib and what a difference between her and her older sister.

Here is a great link that gives suggestions according to age in helping babies sleep - http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/7651.html

If once your baby is older, decide to look at Dr. Ferber's technique, here is a great article that describes his background, his research and the myths of why some parents say they do not like his technique - http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/baby/babysleep/7755.html

Definitely not one size fits all when it comes to parenting. I breastfed (which isn't an option for shewolfnm, and which makes a difference in recommendations) and I was the envy of all the moms I knew with similar-aged babies -- they'd ask how many times she woke up at night, and I'd say (honestly), "Huh, I'm not sure." Neither of us would wake up much, just kind of go through the motions in our sleep. She's always been a sound and restful (not moving a lot) sleeper, very cuddly, generally things have gone great with sleeping.

A friend who has a daughter about the same age did Ferber, and raved about it... it worked (in her perspective, anyway -- she'd say things like "oh, she only cried 20 minutes last night") until she moved her daughter to a "big bed" from her crib. Then all heck broke loose, as the daughter would not stay in her bed. I saw the continuing power struggles between them during the day, as the night-time power stuggles carried over.

As with any technique, there are ways to do it right and ways to do it wrong. I certainly know AP parents who take it all too far IMO.

At any rate, the main thing I don't like about Ferber is not crying it out per se, but the idea that babies should be "independent." Attachment is in fact very important -- Sears and Ferber are kind of at the opposite ends of that spectrum, with a lot of basic overlap but then distinctly different emphases.

I can get links to go into all of that in more detail, but I worry that the Ferber thing is distracting for shewolfnm. I wanted to get some balance in there not only for sheworlfnm but for anyone who comes across this thread later, and if anyone wants the links I'm talking about, I'll get 'em. But sounds like shewolfnm has some good ideas and I don't want to take her thread too far off track.

Sozobe - independent? That is the first time I ever heard of Dr. Ferber being associated with a baby' independence. So I looked up some stuff. It appears that again many parents against Ferber technique are the ones that state this independence. Ferber does not advocate independence of a baby, just advocates that they learn to fall back asleep by his/herself. He also does not claim anything beyond sleep advice, as this is his specialty. He always advocates ensuring that your baby feels secure and safe. That is why you go back and check on him/her rather than just leave the baby crying for hours. The idea is to make the baby feel safe and secure, not independent.

Basically, I suggest to shewolfnm what will work best for her and her baby. I have used both and for a while Dr. Sears worked great for us. There are definite benefits to it and definite cons to it as any method. It only sounded as if shewolfnm wanted her baby to "learn" to sleep through the night by herself that I suggested Dr. Ferber. Dr. Sears does not recommend that method. Again even my pediatrician says (and get your pediatrician's opinion) that whatever works best for you - a baby sleeping with parents is not an issue if everyone can sleep and can be comforting for both baby and parent. It just will be more difficult if you (parent) get to a stage (before baby/child) does where you want baby or child to move to their own bed.

Any change in sleeping patterns is going to trigger some level of difficulty especially depending on child and how parents handle it. As far as changing from crib to bed. I found the best way was to have your child help pick out her new bed. Then set up the bed in the room with the crib and let her decide when she wants to use it. It is much easier to let the child decide than fight about it. I can understand why a child would have difficulty as she is leaving her nice secure crib that she was used to - to a big scary new situation. It is the way the parent handled the situation that brings about the difficulty not the method. If power struggles are occurring during the day, it is obvious this has more to do with fighting over power than sleeping arrangements.

Linkat, when I did a search for "Ferber independence", your own link was the first result:



(Reader's comment.)

More from that link:



(From body of article -- "Ferber's reality".)

What is that if not independence?



(From body of article -- "Ferber's reality".)

Crying gets her what she wants... well, yeah. It's how babies communicate. Excerpting to indicate the independence thing, so will keep comment to again, what is this if not independence? She can't get what she wants (the parents) so she needs to learn how to deal with it. Independence, no?

And that's all from your link, not any of the anti-Ferber sites out there.

ANYWAY, this seems to be becoming a Ferber referendum -- I've already said plenty about one size does not fit all, whatever works, etc. Just wanted to address the "independence" thing.

Sozobe that is what I meant - it is criticizers of Dr. Ferber that call his method independence, not Dr. Ferber. The quote you gave is from this site (which is not a Dr. Ferber's site as I was looking for an independent source rather than a biased source) is from some one who is a criticizer of Dr. Ferber.

Second quote - Falling asleep on your own does not mean an infant is independent of you. The child still needs you to put her in her bed, still needs you to feed her, still needs you to cuddle her, still needs you to change her, still needs you to love her, etc. The only thing that the baby does not need is to fall asleep on her own-that is far from being independent. She did this in your womb before she was born. What is the difference now?

An infant learns to crawl on her own, to walk on her own, to hold her own bottle, etc. It is normal that infants learn to do some things for themselves. This does not make them independent of you.

Yes, crying is the way babies communicate. Dr. Ferber and no one I know disagrees. But babies also have different cries. One for I'm hungry, one for I'm uncomfortable, one for I need to be changed, one for I'm bored, one for I want to be hugged, etc. As a parent you learn what cries need attention immediately and what ones do not. If you are uncertain you check for dirty diapers, check for hunger, etc. until you learn. There is nothing wrong with a baby crying.

Do you always pick your infant up whenever she immediately cries? What if you are on the toilet? What if you have another child you are taking care of. You cannot always immediately attend to a child. If you always do this, you will have difficulty later on. If you keep doing this a baby will cry about everything, same as an older child will whine if you always give you what she wants when she whines.

Started to respond, but this can go on for a while. It's fundamentally different viewpoints. I'll ask shewolfnm what her preference is, if she has any, (continue this discussion independent of her original question, or keep it closer to the topic at hand?) and we'll go from there.

Oh, forgot I'd already found this quote re: Ferber and independence, though:



http://www.todaysparent.com/baby/sleep/article.jsp?content=71

(Second result in Google search for "Ferber independence".)

I concede on independence. I only look at independence as needing the parents. I look at sleeping alone as sleeping alone, not being independent of you. Believe me with my two kids clinging to my legs, they sure as h*ll are not independent.

I also agree that a parent needs to do what works for them, not what "specialists" say, as each specialist say something different. Like I said I have tried both and they both work (at least to a certain degree in both respects, depending on how the parents use them and how the baby reacts to them). Like I said before, the reason I suggested Dr. Ferber was that shewolfnm, from what she wrote, seemed to want to "teach" her baby to sleep on its own. I also say that co-sleeping is fine (we did it) if it works for everyone involved and everyone gets to sleep. However, Dr. Ferber also works, if you want to have your baby sleep in its own crib and can stand listening to having your baby cry for 5 minutes. Neither one is right or wrong and neither one hurts your baby, it is what you would prefer and what would help you all get a better night sleep.

I'd agree with that. I'd reiterate the part about even Ferber saying his method is not for infants under 6 months old, but I stop well short of saying that it is an inherently evil method. I know plenty of people who I respect who think it has a lot to offer.

Meanwhile, shewolfnm, what was your MIL's response? How are things going?

Hmm.. I have taken both doctors points of view into consideration and though I posted before, I have used an EXTREMELY modified version of the cry it out method ( waiting 2 minutes when i know she doesnt really need me ) I dont know that I could go longer. Simply because I dont want her to get anxious or feel insecure.
I think letting a child cry for too long creates an anxiety that becomes the REAL issue of the crying and then yo uhave 2 problems instead of one.
To each his own when it comes to parenting. you do what works for you and your baby. Noone else can tell you what to do , they can just suggest things that worked for them and information they found helpful.

I am still going to put Jillian in her bed this weekend in her own room and see how that goes. I dont have her sleeping with me in my bed, she is sleeping in a small crib in my BEDROOM. I cant let a child sleep with me because I have a mild sleeping disorder that causes me to fight and kick at night. I would be a danger to her. But I want her to learn to sleep through the night with out having to wake up every 3 hours to feed even when she isnt hungry. And I think that hearing myself and my husband in the room all night reminds her to wake up and lets her know that we are there. Granted I always want her to know we are there for her, I just dont want her to get into the habit of having to have someone there every few hours so she can sleep.
Does that make sence?

My MIL was shocked I think. When I told her that she was just going to have to give me room to be a mom and make decisions that may reduce the amount of sleep she gets.. I think she was almost offended because I was telling her that I was going to let Jillian make some noise at night before I jumped to her aide.
Then i said that having a baby in the house means everyone will loose sleep some time or another and she appeared to calm down a bit.
We will see what she truly thinks this weekend when I do exactly as i told her I would. ;-)