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To Lie or not to Lie/what age is ok to explain a lie may be good?

 
 
Linkat
 
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 11:56 am
As kids get older some things are much easier (you don't need babysitters and to bring tons of crap everywhere you lug a toddler) and some things get much more complex.

I had always taught my children when they were young not to lie. I would pay the higher prices to get in the movies and such as they got older so I would do as I say sort of thing.

Now things get complicated. A situation where you are actually punished for telling the truth and the lie wouldn't really harm anything.

Here is an example that happened to a girl a mom had just explained to me - Her daughter missed one high school practice resulting in her losing her captain's title and being benched. What did she miss it for - to attend a college showcase type camp so she could play college sports. The problem it was for a different sport. She told me (because we will potentially miss one as well this year) to lie that she is sick. She said that telling the truth hurt them. I figured since it was school related - college visits are supposed to be excused absences but not in this particular case.

I figure my 16 year old is mature enough to understand when it is appropriate to break a rule. But when and what circumstances would you teach a child this sort of thing?
 
Tes yeux noirs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 12:05 pm
My father, who used to rant about lying being wicked, once kept my sister and out of school for a day and took us to a big horse race, the 1961 Epsom Derby. He told me to tell my teacher we had been shopping.

There is a story about a little girl who kept telling lies, and her mother was upset with her. Being a naturally good girl, she resolved to spend the next day telling the truth. In the morning, her mother asked if she liked her breakfast. "No", the girl replied, "my porridge was lumpy". Later her mother asked "Do you like my new dress?". "No" came the answer, "it makes you look fat". Mother began to be worried. In the afternoon, she asked the girl, "Shall I get my hair cut shorter?". "Don't", said the girl, "you'll look old". The mother decided that the girl must be sickening for something and sent her to bed.

0 Replies
 
Tes yeux noirs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 12:06 pm
@Linkat,
Quote:
I figure my 16 year old is mature enough to understand when it is appropriate to break a rule

Surely such understanding would come much earlier to an astute child?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 12:18 pm
@Linkat,
I think kids naturally understand that is OK to lie sometimes from the time they learn to talk. Lying is a part of life. Kids aren't stupid.

If you ask any articulate 6 year old to give an example when a lie is OK, they will be able to give an intelligent response. I have an ongoing conversation with my 10 year old about these things, I don't tell her to never lie (she is too smart for that). Instead we talk about different situations and what it means to be a good person. This is a complex subject, but kids need to work through these things.

Talk to your daughter, I bet she has understood this complexity for a long time (probably since about 4 or 5). As a teenager you have to manage emotional relationships not only with your family, but also with peers an teachers... I think it would be very difficult to function as a teenager without having to deal with the complexities of lying in social relationships.

Kids also figure out when they are lied to, I bet your daughter could give you a list.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 12:35 pm
@Tes yeux noirs,
well yeah, but I have a even younger daughter - I think the point I am trying to make or the question - what age are they capable of understanding sometimes lying is ok?

My older daughter is a huge rule follower too ( I would say much more than I am).
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 12:37 pm
@Linkat,
I think that most 6 year olds are capable of understanding that sometimes lying is ok. According to Kohlberg (a psychologist who studied morality) preschool kids have pre-conventional morality. They base their sense of right or wrong on punishment and sincerely learn that lying is bad if they are caught.

Once a kid reaches the stage of conventional morality, they can handle the nuance. They understand that sometimes lying hurts people, and that other times lying is the only way to keep people from being hurt. Once a kid reaches first grade, they have already been put in situations where they needed to understand this.

Kids learn fast, and they learn about lying fast.
Tes yeux noirs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 12:58 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I think that most 6 year olds are capable of understanding that sometimes lying is ok.

I was going to say 6 or 7 too.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 01:00 pm
@maxdancona,
Yeah I just dont want them to learn too quick - as I don't want them lying to me.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 01:21 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

Yeah I just dont want them to learn too quick - as I don't want them lying to me.


I hate to break it to you Linkat, but you have a 16 year old daughter.

The question isn't whether she lies to you. The question is whether she does it well enough that you don't notice. (Do you remember being 16 years old yourself).
Tes yeux noirs
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 01:25 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Do you remember being 16 years old yourself

Apparently not.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 01:29 pm
I think deep down, most parents want their teenagers to lie to them. Honestly, it would upset us if we really knew what they were doing. Teenagers instinctively understand this and lie to protect us.

Of course we were teenagers once too. Every time I remember what I did as a teenager it makes me shudder as a parent. Yet, somehow we all make it into adulthood anyway.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 01:39 pm
@maxdancona,
I know of course, I've caught her and the younger girl too- I mean the younger as you were saying 6 years old.

But I have learned that I know a heck of alot more than other parents - people are surprised at what she tells me. I expect her to have some secrets - I know
0 Replies
 
PUNKEY
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 02:03 pm
It's too bad that your daughter thinks she has to lie in this situation.

Really - one practice and that girl lost her captainship and got benched?
Surely, the coach would have understood her need to go to this event. The parents should have intervened.

Talk to the coach and tell him about the one day she will not be there. Tell him the truth and that you expect he will understand. If he doesn't go to the upper authorities.

My husband coached. God help the kid who missed practice. He had practice on Mother's Day and I almost choked him.

There are reasons, and then there are reasons. The coach should understand.


ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 02:08 pm
I have tried hard over the years not to lie at all. First of all, back in my childhood and teens, it was a sin, but that's not the reason. I started trying not to lie back in my twenties when I did a spate of it for a while and didn't like it. I consider it too much trouble, both to somehow keep track of, but also that it's actually an odd practice, all things considered.

I'd rather fix that school's problem with one type of college visit being worth a benching, but not other visits.. Why not complain?
On little white lies about how someone's new dress looks, there are ways to say that's ok without actively lying. If it really is awful, I'd be saying it's not my favorite dress of yours (while smiling) or to me, it doesn't flatter. Easier to be straightforward or quiet or frown and maybe wink. Mostly my friends and acquaintances don't ask stuff like that, we are not fifteen and dress as we wish. When I do love something someone is wearing, I'll say so happily and they can trust that.

I do understand the rest of you posting that some lies are ok - it's just that I've modified my take on it myself.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 02:18 pm
@ossobuco,
I have the opposite take on it. My goal for kids and myself is to be a decent person and to be happy. Lying is a part of that... and learning when to lie, and how to do it well, is an important life skill.

My 10 year old is a big Doctor Who fan (actually we like to watch it together). Kid shows are preachy with clear lines of right or wrong where doing right is rewarded and wrong doers always pay. Real life isn't like that (and good storytelling isn't either).

Rule #1: The Doctor lies.

Kids love this line, and it is part of the story. They love it because they understand it is telling a truth about life. The Doctor lies to protect people, and to help people and occasionally to get what he wants. Adults in real life lie for the exact same reason.

I think kids should know the truth about lying.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 02:30 pm
@PUNKEY,
The problem is this is MIAA rules - basically the Mass Interscholastics Athletic Association rules state that you cannot miss a high school game/practice, etc. for another sport outside of high school.

Some school coaches are very strict about it, others are willing to turn a blind eye on it. Unfortunately from what I am seeing and hearing our school is strict about it. Many of the varisty teams practice on either a Sunday or Saturday so if you have one of these sorts of camps that colleges tend to run on weekends so you can showcase your skills - you can get benched for several games. I forget the MIAA rule amounts. But this is the first that I have heard of losing your captain title.

Most coaches will not allow parents to speak with them. You can email and voice your concerns, but most coaches don't budge on this.

The only allowed reasons to miss - doctors/dentist type appointment/school academic type thing - and then the student needs to bring a note from the teacher saying they stayed after for academic reasons and was late or missed practice because of it.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 02:32 pm
@Linkat,
It could be a good opportunity to talk with your daughter about how to set priorities, and to decide with her what the plan on this will be.
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 02:35 pm
@ossobuco,
I like your take and try to use it to. Most of these lies I am referring do not need a story behind it. I simpy say she isn't feel well for example and do not expand on it. Simple ones work best.

Here is one - is this a lie? I ordered a new stove - it was going to cost $240 or so to have it installed (delivery was free) - $15 to take away the old stove. So I ordered online, paid the $15 for the take away, but did not pay extra for the install - come on we are just plugging it in.

So when they came today, I let him know I paid for the take away of the old stove which I did and then showed him where the old stove was. I proceeded to go to work in my office just off the kitchen and where I could see them working on the stove. They took away the old and then proceeded to install and test out the new. I didn't say a word. They told me they were all set and everything looked.

I didn't lie....but I didn't pay the $200+.
Herald
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 02:36 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:
I had always taught my children when they were young not to lie.
     All the children ... and women and even some men are lying from time to time - that is something like a survival strategy, like sports ... but what about the merchants and the politicians and the 'money-changers of the shrine' who are continuously lying at wholesale: is it good for the merchants and for the politicians to lie unscrupulously, and why they should lie at all.
     The Bible on the issue: Leviticus 19:11 You shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
     Do you know what and why is that - it is because when somebody is lying he/she is continuously wasting his own time and the time of the others - no matter what the motivation of that might be. Nobody could be bulshitted to infinity - sooner of later the truth comes to light, for the truth always comes to light.
     I personally am not interested in the lies of the children - I am interested in the big lies in the society, like for example:
     Lie No.1: The Modern Money Mechanics is critically vital to the welfare of the global economy. False. The Modern Money Mechanics is the greatest curse of the contemporary society. It is designed to benefit the money-changers and the strip-dancers presenting themselves as bankers, and also the corrupted politicians around the world... and to destroy the middle class and to send the world economy and the biosphere of the Earth in the Dimension X.
     Lie No.2: The irresponsible increase in the CO2 in the air is innocent 'occupation' and shouldn't be paid any serious attention. False. The irrseponsible increase of the CO2 is a road to nowhere and it is driving the biosphere of the Earth towards the Hell.
     Lie No.3:The promiscuous tapping and eavesdropping of the computers and the communications is for the sake of social security and does not have side effects. False. This is distorting the social relations and gives competitive advantage to some absolute retards and unscrupulous people to make 'brilliant social careers' ... and PhD thesis of any kind.
     Lie No.4:It is natural and absolutely O.K. for most of the politicians to lie as for a world championship. False. The real Assignor of the politicians is the People. There is no such a contract in which systematic lying of the Assignor is an idea of first brightness.
     Lie No.5: To the society should not be told any truth ... for it is not knowing what to do with it. False. Under incomplete, misrepresented and false information no society can take any proper and sustainable decisions. By systematically lying the society about everything the system of decision making is distorted to infinity.
     Lie No.6: The terminator in the GMO grains is absolutely safe to our health. False. The terminator in the GMO grains is participating directly in our body metabolism and can cause all sorts of health problems.
     Aren't these issues much more interesting?
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2015 02:38 pm
@ehBeth,
Well in this case it is obvious what the priority is - this is the second sport. And for this other girl the same thing. Her priority is to get to play at college - it helps alot to go to these camps as you get to meet the girls currently on the team and you get the coaches to not only see how you perform, but to meet you and see a little bit about what sort of person you are.

A good way for both sides to see how you would fit, plus you get some great coaching too.
 

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