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Why the US can't be trusted

 
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 11:39 am
Piffka wrote:

Quote:
You portrayed your position represented a refuge of sanity, thereby making the clear implication that opposing positions were its converse.


You are now putting words in my mouth that I never said. There is no clear implication of anything other than I think opposing positions are wrong.


Piffka, I don't think I did. You did in fact describe your position as sanity and this does hold an implication for the opposite position Piffka.

But like the "sick" thing Piffka I am going to let it go.

Quote:
Good. Saying one feels "sick" is a common way to express minor mental anguish... as in, "I feel sick... I didn't make the half-price sale at Nordstroms."


I suppose I can chalk this up to you being far more accepting of being called "sick" than I would have imagined.

Either way, I do not mind, you can call me "spanky" too.

Quote:

I am very sorry that you equate toys with freedom. It continues to show me that you discount at your peril the freedoms you enjoy. It makes me sad that you might toss it aside and not see it as valuable.


But I did not equate toys with freedom, you will not find a single instance where I do so...

I made a comparison between me giving up something that is none of your business (I say this in respect to what vested interest you ahve in my mere position and not a "mind your own business" hostility) and wondered why you should care if it doesn't affect you.

Let's see if I can make it clear through satire:

[satire]

If it does not affect you, what business of yours is it?

Wether it's toys or personal information how is it your business? I am not equating the two but illustrating situations that I think are my personal decisions and if it doesn't affect you I am nonplussed at your position.

Since you claim that whether or not it affects you my choices in regard to what information I would give up bother you I am asking what basis you have to intrude on my personal decision.

Why do you interject yourself into this freedom of mine if it does not affect you?

[/satire]

I don't really care too much heck people get all up in my business anytime, such is human interaction, but I think that illustrates a point.


Quote:
That is very interesting. I am a public person in my town so many know me or know of me. I suppose that your reticence in allowing your real email address to become known has some arcane electronic basis. To me, if I were worried, I'd change my ISP frequently.


<smiles> My retincence is so I do not have to make changes.

Quote:
Well, I do think it odd that anyone would prefer fruit over chocolate. However, in this case we can only purchase one container and have to share it.


Nope, remember we agreed on a hypothetical in which my decision and preference does not affect any laws or policies, you said it bothered you merely that I held the positioons, not because you would have to share them (which would be a really understandable factor in bothering you).

Quote:
I do see that you losing your right to privacy is an inherent danger and I would call out to you on a trail if you were headed over a cliff.

I had to look up your weird word to make sure I got it right. Yes, it is a charitable and even an altruistic reasoning based on agape.


Ok, this is interesting what danger does it represent to me (remember, not to you)?

I suspect the dangers are contingient on me sharing your position and your values and if so that's kinda like me telling girls that there is great danger in lying with men because I find lying with men to be an unattractive scenario.

'twould be a wee bit of projecting.

Quote:
I see. Most people say they are independent and free... but it is interesting to see how they compromise themselves.


Piffka, people can say you are "compromising" your freedoms too. IMO it's a patronizing (or matronizing) assumption that I am "compromising". Different strokes, I want different things than you.

Who said I was compromising? Certainly not me, if I want to do something.

Quote:
In America, "freedom" is a weird word.

Do you think that somewhere else it is not, then?


Perhaps still weird but less weird nearly everywhere I have lived. In America it's frequently a euphemism for "what I want".

And you can see that here, what I want is different from what you want but you characterize your wishes as "freedom" and mine as "compromising freedom".

I'm not compromising my freedom Piffka, I am exercising my freedom to think differently than you Piffka, my freedom to come to different conclusions and my freedom to make different choices about my own life than would you.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 12:41 pm
Craven wrote:
Piffka, I don't think I did. You did in fact describe your position as sanity and this does hold an implication for the opposite position Piffka. But like the "sick" thing Piffka I am going to let it go.

I suppose I can chalk this up to you being far more accepting of being called "sick" than I would have imagined. Either way, I do not mind, you can call me "spanky" too. But I did not equate toys with freedom, you will not find a single instance where I do so... I made a comparison between me giving up something that is none of your business (I say this in respect to what vested interest you ahve in my mere position and not a "mind your own business" hostility) and wondered why you should care if it doesn't affect you. Let's see if I can make it clear through satire:
[satire] If it does not affect you, what business of yours is it?
Wether it's toys or personal information how is it your business? I am not equating the two but illustrating situations that I think are my personal decisions and if it doesn't affect you I am nonplussed at your position. Since you claim that whether or not it affects you my choices in regard to what information I would give up bother you I am asking what basis you have to intrude on my personal decision. Why do you interject yourself into this freedom of mine if it does not affect you? [/satire] I don't really care too much heck people get all up in my business anytime, such is human interaction, but I think that illustrates a point. <smiles> My retincence is so I do not have to make changes. Nope, remember we agreed on a hypothetical in which my decision and preference does not affect any laws or policies, you said it bothered you merely that I held the positioons, not because you would have to share them (which would be a really understandable factor in bothering you). Ok, this is interesting what danger does it represent to me (remember, not to you)? I suspect the dangers are contingient on me sharing your position and your values and if so that's kinda like me telling girls that there is great danger in lying with men because I find lying with men to be an unattractive scenario. 'twould be a wee bit of projecting. Piffka, people can say you are "compromising" your freedoms too. IMO it's a patronizing (or matronizing) assumption that I am "compromising". Different strokes, I want different things than you. Who said I was compromising? Certainly not me, if I want to do something. Perhaps still weird but less weird nearly everywhere I have lived. In America it's frequently a euphemism for "what I want". And you can see that here, what I want is different from what you want but you characterize your wishes as "freedom" and mine as "compromising freedom". I'm not compromising my freedom Piffka, I am exercising my freedom to think differently than you Piffka, my freedom to come to different conclusions and my freedom to make different choices about my own life than would you.


Thanks, Spanky, for letting so much go. Your toys are none of my business, just as your private life is not ... nor do I believe it is the concern of any government unless and until you have raised sufficient suspicious activity that a search warrant is necessary. Your determination of sufficient suspicious activity and mine are surely different as, indeed, one would expect. I hope you continue to exercise your freedom for a very long time.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 01:20 pm
Oh oh oh, throw in King of the Hippies! That would be wicked funny (sorry the whole office decided to get drunk today, been a while since I last got drunk and I'm hammered!).

I have a question, would you oppose a fingerprint database?

In Brazil everyone is fingerprinted for their IDs, but they don't do anything with it. Rolling Eyes

If they are gonna collect it I think they should use it to solve crime.

My objections to this issue we are talking about have more to do with it's uselessness than anything else.

Another thing, you do realize that a private company can do pretty much the same thing right?
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 02:15 pm
I would oppose a fingerprint database that was used outside the criminal justice system. Several years ago, automated fingerprint identification software was all proprietary and managed by private companies in contract to governments. One of the best was French. Lots of money to be made with criminal justice databases... note 40 Million dollars has been spent by Homeland Security on the system they've now shelved. I don't imagine much of that was given to government workers, but <shrug> who knows?

In the USA, fingerprints are taken if you obtain a concealed weapons permit, volunteer with children, or are involved in many other activites including criminal ones. Many children have also been fingerprinted so that they can be identified if kidnapped.

You are exactly right that the cumbersome nature of large amounts of data frequently renders it useless.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2004 08:27 am
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapidÂ…As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it, "all men are created equal except Negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal except Negroes and foreigners and Catholics." When it comes to this, I shall prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure,and without the base alloy of hypocrisy."

Abraham Lincoln
quoted from: http://www.nps.gov/linc/lincoln/road.htm
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 04:51 pm
Piffka wrote:
I would oppose a fingerprint database that was used outside the criminal justice system.


What about one that is used exclusively by the criminal justice system but that collates fingerprints that are not exclusively from convicted criminals?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 05:13 pm
I'm wondering if an automated fingerprint data base, handprint base, dna base or whatever would not be the partial answer to identify theft that seems to be the next white collar crime crisis lieing in the wings. This could also of course be used to solve crimes.

It would make it very difficult to go into a witness protection program maybe?
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 10:36 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
Piffka wrote:
I would oppose a fingerprint database that was used outside the criminal justice system.


What about one that is used exclusively by the criminal justice system but that collates fingerprints that are not exclusively from convicted criminals?


The FBI's NCIC fingerprint databases currently process fingerprints from non-criminals, Craven, including children, etc. ... they're called civilian prints.

If you are wondering about my thoughts on US-VISIT... it doesn't sound like a great idea to me. Just the expected costs without any overruns are extraordinary, it sounds like it will be redundant (assuming other countries implement their own plans for bio-metric passports) and is another example of computer logic trying to take the place of physical security. So what's not to dislike? It is outrageously expensive, operationally unwieldy, won't be able to track all incoming visitors and, worst of all, it will make agents more exclusively dependent on a system that in all likelihood will be breached before it is fully implemented.

I'm not a fan of the "Preferred Traveler" cards, either.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 01:59 pm
Personally, I've no difficulties with telling/giving someone something which I want to tell/give ... .

Mostly.

Today, I got my "Admission Ticket" for the TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign Language), which will happen in autumn here in Germany.

"This picture [my photo] will be available to the institutions and agencies that receipe the scores.
It will also be supplied to United States law enforcement agencies."

Especially the last is quite consequential, since I already accepted that they got my personal data.
(And since they know by then that I need this certificate for a British university, I hope, thea'll send all the stuff to the UK Security Service (MI5). :wink:
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 02:26 pm
Hi Walter. It seems odd that your needing to get into a British university requires you to give personal data to U.S. law enforcement agencies.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 02:48 pm
Well, the test is run by TOEFL, which is situated in Princetown, USA.

Actually, they send these informations, even if you quote to use this test for "To demonstrate my profiency in English to the company for which I work or expect to work" and "Other than the above (specify)"
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 02:57 pm
Good luck with the test, Walter!

TOEFL sounds like teufel. <grin> Better be careful! Wink
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 03:02 pm
Thanks, piffka - it's more or less just for fun .... and because this seems to be easier than to 'transscript' my military interpretor certificate into a 'recognized' one Laughing
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 03:10 pm
MI5 know all about you walter, they've been reading your posts on a2k.

and mine
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 03:13 pm
<snicker> Of course... all the best intelligence is found on the 'net.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 03:15 pm
Yes, just a shame the various agencies don't know what we do, eh? Smile
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 03:16 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
and mine


Hmmh, I know, look here!
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 03:44 pm
Oh good, now we know the source of their accurate information.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 05:52 pm
Coming in late here with some musings on privacy.

If I take your photo when I am recording life in a public square, I presume that I am not invading your privacy. If I am going to publish that photo, have I now invaded it? This interests me anyway since I take a lot of photos of people in public spaces and may publish them at some point. Do I need them to sign off in some way? My own take is no, whatever the law might be and I think the law is yes, my instinct is no, since you are out there wandering around in public.

If I order a vegetarian meal on a plane I can imagine only with great effort that that would help identify some future malefactor, but my instincts don't mind that recording or that usage.

If my financial situation is somehow recorded for perusal, my antennae go up, geez, more people knowing how crumby it is. Access to my credit history for its clues to my incompetence or financial acumen or for clues to my intent to blow up a plane does bother me... I do want to control it. As long as the credit charge isn't refused then I feel it is nobody's business... speaking of feelings.

But in reality I have no doubt huge batches of info about me, including financial, are simple to trace. And I can see it being held that if you use a credit card you are participating in a social/public action. I pretty much feel the cat is out of the box already on that.

Musing in the other direction, I don't want people to know what books I buy on Amazon, in bookstores, or request from libraries. They'd be bored but I want to retain privacy. Hey, I just bought Neruda's poems, wasn't he subversive, heh? Credit card info doesn't give someone titles now - not sure re receipts from bookstores, some bookstores are fighting info giving; and I know libraries are fighting re giving what their readers are reading.

So musing backwards, if I want control of the information about what I read, isn't it a slippery slope re what I buy, or what I order for a meal on a plane?

I am not as adamant as piffka but see her point. But I see Craven's point on the trade, and that equally thoughtful people can make different trades.

If getting on a plane meant you had to sign that you understood what you were agreeing to divulge, I would still catch the plane, whatever my qualms.
0 Replies
 
 

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