Why the US can't be trusted

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...with our personal data.

These same objections that the EU's have are similar to ones that (apparently only a) few people in the USA have. I am angry that the War on Terror has blossomed into an attack of personal freedoms on so many levels. So many levels, in fact, that it seems my government is like that many-headed monster... chop off one head and two more spring forth.

I wonder, are you personally so afraid of terrorists that you are willing to have some of your most important freedoms curtailed, or do you think giving up what seems like a modest amount of freedom is worth your safety?

Here is the article on Expatica:

Quote:

Why the US can't be trusted with our personal data...Its conviction that it alone holds the ideals of truth, justice, freedom and democracy is both wrong and dangerous.

By stealth, the US is building vast databanks of personal information on citizens and non-citizens, criminals and the entirely innocent. When investigating a murder recently, the FBI had 1.5 million relevant DNA samples to search. How did they get so many samples? If this isn't state surveillance, what is?

It is neither accountable nor in any way transparent as to its methods, objectives and results. Information is power, and the US is grabbing fistfuls of it to our peril.

...The United States administration has made it patently clear that it does not consider itself bound by laws - domestic or international - when they conflict with its interests. All it takes is for somebody, from the President on down to a lowly border guard, to say so. As if in a dictatorship, the President has made himself prosecutor, judge and jury.

... the Red Cross says that 70-90 percent of those rounded up are innocent of any crime; the United States has stated in words and deeds that it's OK to lift human rights for the "war on terror" and OK to torture human beings, especially those who are non-white and non-American.
Not just criminals, though that's bad enough. These are people who have not been charged with any crime. So much for the presumption of innocence. ...When your plane takes off for the US, you're a suspect too.

The European Commission is putting the safety and dignity of every traveler at stake by giving the US information with which its border security personnel can wreck havoc on personal lives. In case that isn't perfectly clear, the US had an escape clause built into the agreement on how the data will be used, saying that it couldn't be held to it in any case.

Europeans may sit silent when they think it will only be Muslims and dark-skinned people being harassed, just as they did when Jews and Gypsies were taken into the night. We all know what that silence begets, and it is ugliness in the extreme.

...Simply put, the United States cannot be trusted to respect any law or international protocol, and cannot therefore be trusted with the personal data of Europeans.

For once, the European Parliament tried to look out for our interests, and an unelected and unaccountable Commission overruled them. Europeans should now press their representatives to take this ill-advised decision to the European Court, where it can be overturned for the dangers it poses to the privacy and security of all of us and for its clear violation of EU law.

2 July 2004 [Copyright Expatica News 2004]

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The acts on personal freedom started long before the war on terrorism.

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By stealth, the US is building vast databanks of personal information on citizens and non-citizens, criminals and the entirely innocent. When investigating a murder recently, the FBI had 1.5 million relevant DNA samples to search. How did they get so many samples? If this isn't state surveillance, what is?

How the FBI got 1.5 million DNA samples isn't any secret and never has been. Federal law that has been in effect for at least 10 years now requires every convict to give a DNA sample and in teh mid-1990s the military started taking DNA samples from everyone in the military. I'd be surprised if the FBI's files only have 1.5 million samples. I suspect it's 5 or 6 times that number.

The overall subject is interesting though. Many of those who are concerned about the government collecting data now are the very same people that have been advocating that the government keep track of every single gun owner in this country for years and they've poo-poo'd the exact same complaints when gun owners objected.

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I can't really comment on the FBI's database on DNA samples, but I'm definately annoyed about the US being able to get its grubby little hands on my personal data if I flew there.

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I guess that's the penalty everyone has to pay. Tell the Islamic fundamentalists that have martyr fantasies to stay out of America and it will no longer be an issue.

One bad apple ruins the bushel or however that goes.

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Too true, McGentrix.

I guess it's a case of 'Yes, it's crap, but it's the only crap we've got..."

The British government would have an easy time collecting data about most US tourists visiting here, as many of them like to tell everyone within earshot where they are from, what they had for dinner and how quaint everything is, loudly and at regular intervals.

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Grand Duke wrote:

Too true, McGentrix.

I guess it's a case of 'Yes, it's crap, but it's the only crap we've got..."

The British government would have an easy time collecting data about most US tourists visiting here, as many of them like to tell everyone within earshot where they are from, what they had for dinner and how quaint everything is, loudly and at regular intervals.

That's a tad bit of stereotypical hooey ya got there.

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The only people who need fear are the criminals.

Did you leave DNA somewhere it wasn't supposed to be?

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Sorry about that outburst, McG. I live in one of the biggest tourist magnets in this small country, and have seen more than my fair share of your fellow countrymen wandering about in big shorts. They are no worse than those of any other nationality, but I picked on them because I can understand what they are shouting about, unlike the Japanese, Spaniards, Swedes, Germans etc etc... It's a small price to pay for the millions of lovely dollars they spend when they get here. God bless tourists.

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What always surprises me is that US_Americans usually don't trust government at all - or why are you against ID-cards?

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fishin' wrote:

The acts on personal freedom started long before the war on terrorism.

How the FBI got 1.5 million DNA samples isn't any secret and never has been. Federal law that has been in effect for at least 10 years now requires every convict to give a DNA sample and in teh mid-1990s the military started taking DNA samples from everyone in the military. I'd be surprised if the FBI's files only have 1.5 million samples. I suspect it's 5 or 6 times that number.

The overall subject is interesting though. Many of those who are concerned about the government collecting data now are the very same people that have been advocating that the government keep track of every single gun owner in this country for years and they've poo-poo'd the exact same complaints when gun owners objected.

I don't know if the numbers are correct, I defer to you. As for guns, I don't advocate for gun control... I am a purist when it comes to the Bill of Rights.

Part of my concern is from my work experience messing with data. I KNOW it can be screwed up in oh-so-many ways.

I do consider it a problem when the government is creating and maintaining large amounts of private information files about individual people for "future reference." Here are a few more reasons:

1. It is a waste of government time and money and computer resources when those same resources are not up-to-snuff right now.
2. This is a trolling operation with the only suspicious act that someone is flying to the United States.
3. A criminal or terrorist can pay with cash to circumvent much of the system.
4. I don't agree that curtailing personal freedoms is an effective way to fight terrorism.

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Yikes... I just checked the poll... not that many people have voted, but half willingly give up freedom for safety.

Remember this modest proposal means that the largest military government in the world wants to know precisely when and where you have traveled. They will record without sunset provision how you paid, how much you paid, who you traveled with, whether you had a vegetarian meal, your luggage, all those things connected with your financial and traveling records so they can be correlated with more indexing records about your identity, including BNLT, name, address, passport number.

Strangely, if they make a mistake, they are not liable and you no longer have the right to prompt judicial treatment.

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What you call "giving up freedom" others may call "no big deal".

To each his own, freedoms are not ever "given up" they are exchanged.

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What you call "giving up freedom" others may call "no big deal".

It's never a big deal until it impacts you, is it? I don't mean you personally, but in general, people have a way of letting things slide until their ass is in the fire...

Cycloptichorn

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Yes, I have heard others call this "no big deal." That, in particular, alarms me since I see it as a huge deal.

Perhaps you dismiss this because you believe the information will be a monstrous load of raw data to go through? I see it as impossible to verify and believe it will be duplicated.

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To what end though? Will the government start spammimg you? Will they use the data to bail out certain airlines?

What could they possibly do with this information other than to scour it for suspicious activity?

If you travel to Syria, then Saudi Arabia and then Somalia and the France and back to the US, you may be questioned about it. I hope they do, because that's suspicious!

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The poll question is extremely biased.

You have no freedom to travel secretly on commercial airlines, or to cross borders in secret.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
What you call "giving up freedom" others may call "no big deal".

It's never a big deal until it impacts you, is it?

No, many times people consider it a "big deal" simply on the basis of their values.

Quote:

I don't mean you personally, but in general, people have a way of letting things slide until their ass is in the fire...

And others of screaming fire needlessly. <shrugs>

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Piffka wrote:

Yes, I have heard others call this "no big deal." That, in particular, alarms me since I see it as a huge deal.

Perhaps you dismiss this because you believe the information will be a monstrous load of raw data to go through? I see it as impossible to verify and believe it will be duplicated.

No, I dismiss it because I simply do not share your values in this regard or your conclusions.

Not because I don't think it will be used, I think it should be.

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Karzak wrote:

The poll question is extremely biased.

You have no freedom to travel secretly on commercial airlines, or to cross borders in secret.

Depends where you life: I don't show any identification when crossing borders within the Schengen states.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Depends where you life: I don't show any identification when crossing borders within the Schengen states.

But you have no right of secrecy when you cross them, because you are in the public eye.

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Why the US can't be trusted

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