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Anger at US ban on Aids scientists

 
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 10:25 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I don't think I said that at all Craven.


I agree, but I was checking because of this sequence:

1) You asked if I had examples that distributing condoms were effective and quipped "I don't think so".

2) I provided an example where distributing condoms was effective.

Now I can agree with what you are saying now, and Brazil may well need to address behavior too, but I was making sure that you weren't saying it wasn't an example of what you had asked for.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 10:35 pm
Sofia wrote:
The behavioral change was brought about by the addition of abstinence to previously failed programs.


Again, abstinence is just one element of behavioral change.

The ABC program is: Abstinence Be Faithful and Condoms.

Quote:
I brought the article that included 'zero grazing', which is no casual sex. This is a part of abstinence teaching.


No it is not Sofia, "zero grazing" is a reference to the B. As in be faithful and do not "graze".

ABC

Abstinence is the A.

It's part of behavioral change, that Uganda took to new levels, but even condom use is behavioral change.

Quote:
You just like it better when you say it...


No, I just make sure to be accurate, while you try to get the B into the A to try to defend your claims about the A.

Quote:
And the abstinence teaching includes less or no casual sex---reducing partners; statistics of this, and later debut in sexual activity--also a part of the study--is cited by that "fundy writer".


No Sofia, the Abstinence in the ABC program in Uganda was focused on delaying sexual initiation altogether.

Casual sex, reducing partners and such is the B (Be faithful), not the A.

The B is very pissed that you let A take all the credit, and the C has been crying unconsoleably.

Quote:
Sad that Christians can't write articles. She did spin it, but the facts are there in black and white.


Again, nobody said Christians can't write articles, but that particular article was deceit. You too participated.

I do not object because of the religious beliefs, but rather because of the quack science. The "spin" that you, yourself, reference.

I'd asked for scientific evidence and you came with "spin".

Quote:
It doesn't matter. I know it, and anyone who sees it and isn't determined to reject it will see it.


See: Emperor's New Clothes argument.

Sofia, I recognize that A was a part of a successful ABC program, but you were trying to ascribe the success to A to the neglect of B and C.

I do not think abstinence is a bad idea, I simply reject quack science that tries to make it the only idea.

Before I set you off, I know that you do not do so, but some powerful people have moved to do so, and when you start to prevaricate and spin for A then you strengthen their crusade against the C.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 10:44 pm
No, I didn't try to deceive you, or anyone else.

I had an article that contained the information I wanted to show. Though she put her spin on the statistics, I did have confidence in the statistics, and still do.

I wasn't trying to sell you on all her ideas, but the statistics.

And, Craven, being faithful, though they cite it separately--come on-- that's an aspect of abstinence. It's "don't do it" with people outside your marriage. It's abstinence, part B.

Abstain from sex outside your marriage.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 11:04 pm
Sofia, then in that case I too can use wordplay to distort the political reality.

Condoms are abstinence, as in "abstain from sex without condoms". Rolling Eyes

C'mon, a little honesty here! In this political debate these words have meaning and to change them like that is the fallacy of equivcation.

I will grant that the B is related but it's not the same.

A = religious fundamentalists, don't make whoopie before we bless you in church my child

B = middle ground, promiscuity is fought both by right and by left, both by religious fundamentalists and lefty social workers.

C = a moral affront to some of the fundies, and a false sense of security for the lefties, a "silver bullet"

Sofia, you and me have similar positions ourselves (not that we should grab a C and do it in the.. nemind, wrong letters) and ultimately we agree on many of these issues.

I grew up in a religion where A, B and the C were all frowned on severely. If you got AIDS they just kicked you out of the group. In the AIDS scare a member contracted it and was booted. The group curbed the anti-B stuff outside of the group but kept it up within.

The B was fought, heck they indoctrinated against the B, making schedules where adults were pressured to swing.

The A was fought and children were put on the schedule.

The C, together with all the rest, was demonized as ungodly.

The results are catastrophic, a bunch of brainwashed teenage mothers whose only skills when they got out were sexual and ended up as call girls and strippers trying to geta foothold in the real world. Lots of them never got that foothold and a healthy dose of A was something I fought hard for with the people I cared about even when they were adopting the C to start to mitigate against the dangers they were waking up to.

I am a big fan of the A because of this. Abstinence would have saved a whole lot of ruined lives around me.

It sickens me that religious beliefs were used to fight the sanity of ABC with my brothers sisters and childhood friends and many of them (unfortunately mainly the girls, as biology is wicked) will suffer for their entire lives as a result.

I've preached A to the kids I grew up with stridently. I've told more than a few these exact words: "Zip up your vagina, it will be your downfall if you don't wise up".

I'm a big fan of A. AIDS isn't the only issue Sofia, promiscuity has ruined the lives of many I know without any STDs being involved and the lack of a well timed A was the downfall of more people I grew up with than I care to remember.

I reject the religious attempts to fight C in the real world just as I reject the religion fighting A, B and C in the crazy one I came from.

And while I know that in your heart you are in the right place and don't let your religion get in the way of the C that some people need to survive there are strong religious forces that are.

And this is why I oppose what I see as prevarication against the C.

The C is powerful, ABC is even more powerful but we need to recognize reality.

We aren't in a conflict between ABC vs. C. We are in a conflict between A and C and B is the middle ground.

I reject the idiots who blindly insist on C. And I reject the idiots who blindly insist on A.

You are neither, you are an ABC, but if you give A more credit than it deserves (IMO motivated more by playing Devil's advocate to the "only C" idiots than the religion) you are strengthening the cause of the "only A" idiots.

Just look at the entities you ended up being aligned with, I do not point this out as guilt by association but rather to say that if you pull too hard to the A, you end up with bedfellows that aren't yours just because of the issue's polarization.

So when you claim that Abstinence turned the tide in Uganda, toss in a good word for B and C. Because you are ABC, and not one of the "A only" quacks.

That was my objection S.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:25 pm
A.O.K.
0 Replies
 
 

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