Is the Universe Infinite?

Thanks,

If you think of two gravity wells with light pouring out of one and falling into the other the arithmetic comes out a little closer.

Especially if we happen to be in the bottom of "the other" :wink:

JL, re your post of 8-26 1:11 AM

1. The Universe is reportedly very homogenous on a large scale.

2. The Cosmic Microwave Background Survey reported it very homogenous at micro wave lengths.

2a. A Microwave can be light that has "red shifted" from the visible electromagnetic spectrum to the microwave spectrum. "Tired Light" in the words of Fred Hoyle.

3. A "Steady State" (perhaps infinite) theory of the Universe) predicts radiation from every point in the sky.

4. So does the "Big Bang-Expanding Universe Theory "Surface of first scattering". The energies released when quantum matter theories (poor choice of words unfortunetly) changed to atomic theories.

5. So does "Abrahamic Creation Theory" to wit "Let there be light", and there was light. Do I have to attribute that quote in this august company

We probably won't be able to answer this the question definitively on this thread tonite. Probability Theories :wink: . Good evening.

theres a horizon that we cant see beyond, and never will

i agree with BoGoWo, that the universe is cyclic, EVERYTHING (except the impossible) will happen, the universe is either a finite universe (will cycle as many times as it will) or a infinite universe (will cycle eternaly)

"Asherman wrote:
There was the Big Bang, the universe expands until entropy becomes total, all motion ceases and the universal temperature becomes absolute zero. Change ceases to happen, and time ends. One might argue, I suppose that once time begins it never really ends because the end state IS different from the beginning..........

BoGoWo wrote:
and there is no reason to be sure something else won't happen at that, or any other point."

^exactly, i am quite confident that something WILL happen and the universe will collapse or contract

plus the mayans (a very accurate civ.) believed that the universe goes in cycles, im going to side with them

Just a bit of clarification. The quote above is out of context. In it I was describing what a finite universal model would be. My conviction is that the universe is infinite, without beginnings, boundaries, or endings. Within infinity there may be "packed" an infinite number of finite "things".

To me, all of the perceptual universe is ultimately illusory.

Asherman, I would comment on why "the PERCEPTUAL universe" is illusory. To be perceptual or observable is not a quality of the "thing" perceived; it is a function of the relationship between the perceiver and the perceived. Neither has an unconditioned, absolute and independent existence.

I may be not wise enough... and maybe Im going on a different direction here, but Ill use anothers words... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein.

Hmm; perhaps that requires a bit more of your 'descriptive magic' Ash.

hey BoGoWo, do you believe in other quasi-verses outside ours, they are completely separated, no interaction at all, the amount of them isnt infinite though

er, 'yes', and 'no';

my "Ultiverse" (containing all the universes) is infinite; all universes other than ours are beyond this 'observed' one (thus unobserved), possibly similar, and individually finite.

are they like parallel universes?, cause i never really liked the idea of parallel universes

and why do you think the universe is cyclic, most evidence points to it will not cycle, but i agree with you that it is

and what did you mean when you said "the missing dark matter is still happening"

I haven't, but perhaps someone else has thought about several universes, some finite, some infinite and those universes (including infinite's! :/) are part of the Universe (Ultiverse).

Any thoughts?
I don't.

Well, I suppose the string theorists have posited multiple universes.

I Believe (clearly noted as belief) and even an Athiest has to believe in something :wink: That no matter where you go or when you go there things are about the same all over. On a large enough scale naturally.

No Big Bangs, No Creations, No Other Dimensions, No paradises and No Supporting Turtles. Simply Eternally Evolving "Is".

But there isn't a whole lot of money in that kind of Universe That may have something to do with why there are so many others

BoGoWo,

In re. yours of 28AUG, No. 871385, and for JL

The underlying nature of Ultimate Reality is infinite. "It" is without beginning, boundary, or endings. "It" is indivisible and timeless. Ultimate Reality has no "personality", that is it does not think or have individual characteristics. Ultimate Reality is All that exists.

Ultimate Reality dreams. The dream arises from vague stirrings that manifest themselves as N-dimensions at what we call the Planck level. That is the beginning of time, and space, and consequence. None of those "things" have any reality apart from the indivisible. As Ultimate Reality dreams interactions of dimensions, a consequence is the birth of fields and bundles of "stuff" we call energy. Smoothing those empty nothings atomic forces are born, and elements … all empty of any existence beyond the Dream. Consequences.

Interaction of emptiness with emptiness scaled up underpins the Cosmos. Dream Mass became so large and dense that the consequence was a "Big Bang". Consequences. Light and heat enter the Dream, and motion as Dream fragments coalesced into gases and stars. Heavy elements, still nothing more than dream figments became planets and other bits of dream debris. Consequences and the Dream gives rise to life, and to what we call consciousness, but the dream is still just a dream.

One figment of the dream consciousness wonders at the dreamscape. Like all dream creatures the dream seems real, to occupy time and space. That is Perceptual Reality. It is empty, and as meaningless at the dreams that haunt dream creatures slumber. Consequences. One of the consequences of believing that Perceptual Reality is REAL and that we dreamlings have separate and meaningful existence is suffering. Suffering is inherent to us because of our mistaken notion, conviction that we live in a universe of multiplicity. We invent countless ways to account for our suffering, and imagine what endless happiness might be. We invent gods and love and luxury to soften the sorrows of being apart; to assuage our loneliness. Consequences. We die and new dream creatures, no more real than those who went before take their tiny place on the stage. Stars evolve through their various stages and new stars are born. The Dream continues.

The universe of Perceptual Reality is illusory, it is only Ultimate Reality dreaming. The dream universe unfolds creating the illusion of time and space. Where will it go? Consequences. Will Ultimate Reality stop dreaming, or will the consequences of that dream continue without end? Why does Ultimate Reality dream? To these questions, we have no answers though we may have "ideas". How important are the ideas of expressed by the deadmen of our own little dreams?

Are you better off now knowing? The world of multiplicity and perceptual reality have to be dealt with as if they were the only reality. Knowing that we are dream creatures does not lessen the pain when we burn our fingers, nor permit us to ignore the laws of gravity with impunity. We still hunger, become ill, grow old and die. We want more. We want not to be alone, or afraid. We want our existence to matter and for our fellows to think well of us. We have to deal with envy, jealousy, and anger. We want to escape suffering.

Knowing the sources of suffering we can choose to think, speak and act in ways that mitigate and limit the suffering. We may not be able to totally eliminate suffering for all the sentient beings of this dream, but we can try. If we can become fully awake and aware of being dreamlings, then our own suffering will be more manageable, we become less vulnerable to those thoughts that result in suffering. Consequences.

my ash, reading through that post was ..........like.............
sort of.................

dreaming[/size][/color]; in technicolour!

[zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!]

no they are independent universes; but in an infinite Ultiverse, they are 'every' universe!



"all is "polarity";
'something is defined by 'nothing'!
(off, on)(0,1)
the 'pendulum of polarity' applies to every event; but, all cycles tend toward equilibrium, so eventually the cycle will subside to a steady state.



I see the big bang event (within the cycle - in our universe) as enveloping us - continuously happening (not having happened), and therefore more 'dark matter' is being produced as the 'event' continues, until 'everything' has 'happened'.

So, I've succeeded in putting you to sleep. Ah, to sleep, perchance to dream. Aye, there's the rub, for in sleep what troubled dreams might come.

Double, double, toil and trouble;
fire burn, and cauldren bubble.

In sleep, 'nothing' ignites a chaotic fantasy in the evanescent mind of 'time'; untill replete with the burden of 'everything' it awakes to the 'nothing of reality.

It seems that "ultimate reality" consists of ultimate sterility unless it generates the illusion of time and space (seemingly a function of the sleeping Brahma) so that all of its conscious little creatures who have the illusion of genius may ponder its significance until of course these consequences "cease" (die) so that even the illusion of reality, ultimate or otherwise, all awareness, completely transpires into the non duality, the non-relativity of an infinitesimal nothing.

So in short, how would one's relation to an ILLUSION change with the concept of an Ultimate Reality as its backbone when the "consequences" themselves are so "warped" by the gravity of illusion?