6
   

What is the origin of the he'll fire teaching?

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2015 08:19 pm
@InfraBlue,
Never heard of helling vegetables, eh?
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2015 08:22 pm
@neologist,
Helling vegetables and cursing someone to hell are two quite different activities.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2015 08:22 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
What would happen if Frank, after cursing his golf clubs, threw them in a lake of fire?
Same thing.
Destroyed.
Gone.
No more.


The Bible says that after people who don't follow God are thrown into the fire, they will weep and gnash their teeth. The Bible makes it clear that people are tortured for not following God.

The phrase the Bible uses is "eternal punishment". Frank may be frustrated with his golf clubs, but he would never condemn them to eternal suffering the way that God condemns people who don't follow them.

I notice your signature, Neologist, but I am afraid it is wishful thinking. It directly contradicts what is written in the Bible. The Bible clearly states there is a place of eternal torment for people who don't please God.




Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 03:05 am
@InfraBlue,
You said hell is a translation of the word hades in the Bible--it's not. So shove that bloviations bullsh*t up your @ss.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 03:11 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

I think, and this is my opinion, that Jesus is referring to the feeling of dread one might feel when, upon realizing how much he had to live for, sees the certainty of his death.


That really doesn't work...does it?

IF a person really felt that...wouldn't that be repenting of an "evil" deed?

Or is "no repentance and forgiveness" a part of that?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 03:15 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

maxdancona wrote:
So what does being thrown into a lake of fire refer to?
Hmm.
What would happen if Frank, after cursing his golf clubs, threw them in a lake of fire?
Same thing.
Destroyed.
Gone.
No more.

I'm not suggesting Frank should do that, BTW.


Whew!

I threw my driver the other day...and a guy said I had too much weight on my back foot for throwing a driver. He suggested that I widen my stance and open it a bit. When throwing an iron...things are a bit more iffy.
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 03:22 am
A few points to negotiate into the discussion,

1. Literal fire does not appear to harm spirit beings according Daniel 3
2. Death and Hades, translated as Hell in the KJV is thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur. Revelation 20:14
3. The body and soul are destroyed in Hell according to Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:5

It is also worth noting that if you quote KJV or any translation for that matter, you have to find a way negotiate the translation bias, so terms as translated may not be accurate or related to context.

If you want to find out what the bible says, rather than a denomination led understanding thereof, you'd have to study it. I advise using a couple of concordances, find yourself two or three different translations (minimum) to compare.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, "give a man a fish....."
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 03:35 am
By the way, the probable origin of hell-fire preaching was the Protestant Reformation. While the Roman church held sway, people were fed their religion in a language they didn't speak or understand, and which very likely was little understood by the poor and poorly educated priests who served them. But with the spread of Protestant creeds, then both the preaching in vernacular languages, as well as local or more widespread crusades against sin and corruption, especially as the corruption and venality of church leaders in the Roman church had lead to the Reformation. A strong reaction set in, and increasingly, preaching was done by humble men (and sometimes women) whose focus was on the wages of sin. The hell-fire and damnation crowd became very popular among groups like the Presbyterians of Scotland and the dissenters of England. The latter group supported "mechanic" preachers, meaning men who worked with their hands for a living six days a week and then became preachers on the seventh. There was a natural trend toward telling sinners (i.e., everyone) of their faults and their probable punishment. Mileage varied, of course--a trend in the Anglican church (by no means universal) was the "lamb of god/good shepherd" style of preacher, who wanted to tell his parishioners about god's lover and forgiveness. John Wesley and the Methodist were originally of this type (people seem to forget that Wesley has been ordained an Anglican minister after completing his studies at Oxford). But the hell-fire and damnation crowd remained popular, and attending the services of popular ministers tended to confirm this, as many of them went for dramatic effect.
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 04:50 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
god's lover

Intriguing, tell me more Razz

But in all seriousness, thanks Set, I enjoy proper background information like this, you set the scene nicely.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 08:24 am
@Frank Apisa,
neologist wrote:
I think, and this is my opinion, that Jesus is referring to the feeling of dread one might feel when, upon realizing how much he had to live for, sees the certainty of his death.
Frank Apisa wrote:
That really doesn't work...does it?

IF a person really felt that...wouldn't that be repenting of an "evil" deed?

Or is "no repentance and forgiveness" a part of that?
Regret andrepentace; are they really the same?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 08:28 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Helling vegetables and cursing someone to hell are two quite different activities.
Of course. My 'go to hell' statement was not literal. It was just a way of pointing out the nuances of the word.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 08:34 am
@maxdancona,
Check Smiley's notation that death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. Destruction is permanent.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 08:35 am
@Setanta,
That style of preaching may be from the Protestant Reformation... but the images of Hell as a place of eternal torment far predate the reformation even if we ignore the vivid imagery of Hell in the Bible.

Hell has been used to scare people into submission to God far before the Reformation.

This is from 1186 (centuries before the Reformation).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Hortus_Deliciarum_-_Hell.jpg/800px-Hortus_Deliciarum_-_Hell.jpg
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 08:38 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
You said hell is a translation of the word hades in the Bible--it's not.
True.
But many translators use the word 'hell' where the original text used 'hades', 'gehenna', etc.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 10:26 am
@Setanta,
In the King James Version "hell" is used to translate the Greek Ἅιδης or ᾍδης(transliterated: hades), e.g. Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23, Revelation 1:18, Matthew 11:23, etc. Other English translations of those verses, like the International Standard Version, use "hell" as well as phrases such as "the afterlife," and the word hades itself.

You really need to stop blowing so hard, shut-up and start reading more lest you make an even bigger ass of yourself.
anthony1312002
 
  3  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2015 01:31 pm
@maxdancona,
You are very correct instating that the teaching of he'll predates Protestant Reformation. Many historians trace it back into the distant past. For example, the ancient Babylonians believed in hot and cold hells. But when looking at the Jews around the time of Moses this teaching did not exist among them.
0 Replies
 
anthony1312002
 
  3  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2015 01:44 pm
@InfraBlue,
Linguists and others skilled in Bible archeology all agree that the word Hell is not found in the original Bible text. And it is also widely know that Sheol Hebrew, Gehenna - Greek and Hades - Greek, all mean the same exact thing, the common grave. It's one of the reasons why the early Jewish nation did not believe in a burning hell even though other nations around them at the time did. This idea of a burning hell fire did not appear in their belief system until much later when they had been subjugated by the conquering Greeks under Alexander the Great and the Jews then began to disobey their God by compromising in the faith and taking on beliefs that appear no where in the writings of Moses or the prophets.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2015 03:38 pm
@anthony1312002,
anthony1312002 wrote:

Linguists and others skilled in Bible archeology all agree that the word Hell is not found in the original Bible text.

There isn’t “an original Bible text.” There are various manuscripts from which translations are derived. The word hades and others are rendered as "hell" in various English translations of the Bible, as I’ve already pointed out.
anthony wrote:
And it is also widely know that Sheol Hebrew, Gehenna - Greek and Hades - Greek, all mean the same exact thing, the common grave.

These words have other meanings as well, as I’ve pointed out in regard to the word hades.
anthony wrote:
This idea of a burning hell fire did not appear in their belief system until much later when they had been subjugated by the conquering Greeks under Alexander the Great and the Jews then began to disobey their God by compromising in the faith and taking on beliefs that appear no where in the writings of Moses or the prophets.

Sure, and this Greek influence is reflected in the Bible itself what with its references to hades, a punishing, tormenting afterlife, etc., the texts having been written by Hellenic Jews and converted Gentiles.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2015 03:56 pm
@InfraBlue,
But, when all is said and done, since the dead are not conscious, they cannot be tortured. (Psalm 146:4)
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2015 08:20 pm
@neologist,
You're basing your assertion on a single passage.

The passages from the Greek texts quoted on this thread contradict your dogma.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2019 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 08/22/2019 at 10:45:45