What makes existence better than non-existence?

@LunaClare,

I am still asking how can you compare those ?
All you have for measure of comparison is stuff that exists !
For instance you can compare the merits of happiness vs suffering and its not clear that full time happiness is desirable as such state degrades value itself...but again how do you compare any state to a non state qualitatively ?

Let me see if I can clarify it more so you come to understand it. By definition "before being born" has no value whatsoever so how can you qualify it as potentially preferable to any other possible state which has value by merit of existing and thus be able to be relatively compared with something else ?

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

Let me see if I can clarify it more so you come to understand it. By definition "before being born" has no value whatsoever so how can you qualify it as potentially preferable to any other possible state which has value by merit of existing and thus be able to be relatively compared with something else ?

I understand exactly what you're saying because you're not the first person to respond with this. What I'm saying is existing has no merit. It has no value. It's unnecessary and there is no end result. Non-existence has merit from the perspective of already existing. No, you will not be happy when you don't exist, but you don't need to be happy. That's the point. When we're alive we have to work hard and we have to avoid pain. When you're dead, you don't need any of those things.

If you don't think it's possible to compare existing to non-existing, maybe I'm just insane, but I'm sure as hell doing it.

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@fresco,

It's not necessarily about suicide. However the question does pose suicide as a potential "good thing".

Quote:

If you want to start making sense

Am I not making sense? That would be embarrassing if true. In my experience it's just hard for people to comprehend that being dead could be better than being alive. If I'm truly just intellectually flawed, that is a shame.

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@LunaClare,

It makes absolutely no sense to talk about comparisons if you assume that death is "lack of awareness of anything". You might as well try to compare "something" with"nothing".

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@fresco,

Quote:

It makes absolutely no sense to talk about comparisons if you assume that death is "lack of awareness of anything".

Can that not be compared to the opposite? Because that is exactly what I am doing here. If you can't compare life to death, maybe it's perspective based.

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@LunaClare,

LunaClare wrote:

Quote:
By definition "before being born" has no value whatsoever so how can you qualify it as potentially preferable to any other possible state which has value by merit of existing and thus be able to be relatively compared with something else ?

I understand exactly what you're saying because you're not the first person to respond with this. What I'm saying is existing has no merit. It has no value. It's unnecessary and there is no end result. Non-existence has merit from the perspective of already existing. No, you will not be happy when you don't exist, but you don't need to be happy. That's the point. When we're alive we have to work hard and we have to avoid pain. When you're dead, you don't need any of those things.

If you don't think it's possible to compare existing to non-existing, maybe I'm just insane, but I'm sure as hell doing it.

You do understand negative value, suffering, has value right ?
I can go even further and explain you negative value has positive value in the measure it provides meaning to positive experiences for contrast...

...the frailty of life, the possibility of getting sick, suffering the loss of loved ones, dying, retro feedbacks meaning to positive experiences which otherwise would have no measure per se. Its the contrast between those that raises value. Picture it as valleys and mountains, the bigger the discrepancy between those the bigger the value you produce. And its a relative comparison. You don't need Everest for the most happy possible state so long you have the Marianne's trench right next to a small hill...

My point is a non state nullifies everything to the extent the question becomes meaningless...

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

You do understand negative value, suffering, has value right ?

I'm sorry, when I said existing has no merit or value I meant it's pointless and meaningless. I'm well aware that there are positive and negative emotions.

Quote:

My point is a non state nullifies everything to the extent the question becomes meaningless...

The question is not meaningless. I'm asking if it would be better to be dead. To kill yourself, or to accept death. I'm pretty sure it is, but I want to figure out if my logic is flawed, USING logic. Not personal opinion.

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@LunaClare,

No. Existence and non-existence are not opposites. They are logical compliments. The second term is predicated on the first. It is meaningless without it. (-A is the compliment of A where A could stand for "awareness", if human experience of existence =awareness)

1 Reply

@LunaClare,

LunaClare wrote:

Quote:
You do understand negative value, suffering, has value right ?

I'm sorry, when I said existing has no merit or value I meant it's pointless and meaningless. I'm well aware that there are positive and negative emotions.

Quote:
My point is a non state nullifies everything to the extent the question becomes meaningless...
The question is not meaningless. I'm asking if it would be better to be dead. To kill yourself, or to accept death. I'm pretty sure it is, but I want to figure out if my logic is flawed, USING logic. Not personal opinion.

This is not personal opinion, this is exactly what you asked for, LOGIC !

Moreover existence can be anything but pointless and meaningless...
Au contraire debating non existence for contrast is what is pointless and meaningless.

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@fresco,

Quote:

No. Existence and non-existence are not opposites. They are logical compliments. The second term is predicated on the first. It is meaningless without it. (-A is the compliment of A where A could stand for "awareness", if human experience of existence =awareness)

You're correct, I phrased them as opposites because that's the way the person I was responding to seemed to be calling them. Thank you for that beautiful explanation.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

This is not personal opinion, this is exactly what you asked for, LOGIC !

I didn't mean to make it seem like I was saying you were biased, I'm sorry. It was unrelated to you. I was just instating that it's important that this question is solved using logic and fact.

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@LunaClare,

Your question is not about existence per se , but the recognition of the possible meaninglessness of it as in Shakespeare's observation....

Quote:

Life is a tale told by an idiot...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing

Macbeth

It is human fear of that meaninglessness, and their concerns with their "fate", which could account for the invention of religion.

1 Reply

@fresco,

Quote:

Your question is not about existence per se , but the recognition of the possible meaninglessness of it as in Shakespeare's observation....

Basically I'm trying to figure out a valid reason to continue living. From what I know, everyone would be better off dead, or not having been born.

Do you have a response to the original question? I'm sorry I just get tired of beating around the bush for the last half year or so. It's not that I don't value a good discussion.

Quote:

It is human fear of that meaninglessness, and their concerns with their "fate", which could account for the invention of religion.

Yes, I agree.

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The popular pseudo existential dilemma, the meaninglessness of life, is not a permanent determination of value or there wouldn't be anyone around by now to talk about it...the species would have mass suicide.

"Meaninglessness of existence" is a vague obscure account of a depressive transitory state when human beings are confronted with their limits and frailty.

The fact of the matter is that awareness by definition, life as we perceive it, existing, is full of meaning both for the better and the worse.

1 Reply

@LunaClare,

Well, being dead certainly is easier than being alive. And cutting through all of the filler, it sounds like that's exactly what you're saying

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

Meaninglessness of life is not a permanent determination of value or there wouldn't be anyone around by now to talk about it...the species would have mass suicide.

"Meaninglessness of existence" is a vague obscure account of a depressive transitory state when human beings are confronted with their limits and frailty.
The fact of the matter is that awareness by definition, life as we define it, existing, is full of meaning both for the better and the worse.

I don't think someone would kill themself just because they believe life is meaningless and they'd be better off dead. I haven't. Suicide is difficult. It's in our nature, our instinct, to live and fear dying.

"for the better and the worse" only applies while we are alive, I hope you understand. If we're dead, it is only better by comparison to being alive. That is the point I'm getting at. Being dead has no inherent value except from the perspective of currently living, or living as an alternative.

1 Reply

@thack45,

Quote:

Well, being dead certainly is easier than being alive. And cutting through all of the filler, it sounds like that's exactly what you're saying

Yes, I am saying that. Not only that, but life has no redeeming quality to make the difficulty of living worthwhile.

Death is easier, and a lot of people would say suicide is the easy way out. Nothing however is inherently wrong with "easy". It's not about the methods of obtaining the end result, it's about the value of the end result.

There is a lot of filler because I feel like people would easily dismiss the question without an explanation of what the question implies.

I'd like to hear more from you.

1 Reply

@LunaClare,

LunaClare wrote:

Quote:
Meaninglessness of life is not a permanent determination of value or there wouldn't be anyone around by now to talk about it...the species would have mass suicide.

"Meaninglessness of existence" is a vague obscure account of a depressive transitory state when human beings are confronted with their limits and frailty.
The fact of the matter is that awareness by definition, life as we define it, existing, is full of meaning both for the better and the worse.

I don't think someone would kill themself just because they believe life is meaningless and they'd be better off dead. I haven't. Suicide is difficult. It's in our nature, our instinct, to live and fear dying.

"for the better and the worse" only applies while we are alive, I hope you understand. If we're dead, it is only better by comparison to being alive. That is the point I'm getting at. Being dead has no inherent value except from the perspective of currently living, or living as an alternative.

The point precisely if you're thinking about being dead you have no value judgements for referent so you cannot apply "better" about non things.

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While alive one cannot measure value for not being alive, one can only fable about it !

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@Fil Albuquerque,

A possible good reboot would be to confront me with the fact itself, so why do people do it ? Why do people kill themselves ?

My answer is that they project on a fantasy about what "not existing" might entail for contrast of existing miserably as if value could apply...the answer might not be appealing but its correct. As much as value is concerned there is nothing to measure there !

In existing, being aware, you measure suffering vs pleasure, and transit between states that are not definitive. What you don't do is comparing it to nothingness.

1 Reply

What makes existence better than non-existence?

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