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Thu 12 Apr, 2012 04:02 pm
We need to get to the point about what we do know, and what we can't know for now : What actually is life ?
{???}-Non-Existence--[Birth]---->Life----[Death]---->Non-Existence---{???}
I have an abstract view of some sort of afterlife, but not as people used to define it. From a logic view, the fact that I once came out of nothing is a hint that it might work again so the ? would be again some sort of birth, but not in the classic idea of reincarnation, much more abstract.
This is only a thought of mine, feel free to believe in what you want. The main question about our existence is presented in my little drawing, and everyone has a different answer for "?", some say that there is no "?" and you just stay in Non-existence, but I kind of find that hard to believe, because well I already came out once out of non-existence why can't that work again. And if the goal of every life would be to be for ever dead, then there would be no life at all.
Just my opinion, feel free to answer.
It seems that there are 3 main issues in society about afterlife:
1. You go to heaven/hell and there's some huge explanation for why no one knew **** about religion.
2. You die. That's it, you can't think anymore. You can't feel. You're dead, you're gone.
3. Or this, 2 happens, and you die and wait. So time goes by like immediately since you're dead, and you wake up either born as someone else, or something else. The explanation for this would be some sort of atomic crap like your atoms finally eventually being put back in the spots they were in. Either that or something to do with mysterious quantum physics.
I think idea number 3 seems to be more logical. A life doesn't last for ever but life itself does. So your life will may end someday but your individual existence will somehow form itself new in far future (you won't recognize the time, since your dead/non-existent), like it did to form the existence you are living in now, of course this new existence will not have anything to do with the old one, you start from 0 again I think.
And yeah it's too optimistic to think of a place like heaven,
but it's also too optmistic beeing dead forever,
just now you are alive,this is by far the best proof that nothing can possibly be dead for ever.
The process that makes your existence works by itself, no one needed to do anything to exist ,it just happens.
As you can see, I am trying to argument against that "Forever and ever dead"-attitude to death, just because it doesn't make any sense at all. You once came out of nothing, so why shouldn't that work again and again after your dead (for this life at least).
Please keep in mind, that even this idea sounds great and logic, the real event that will happen after death won't change no matter what we believe in, so it's very likely that everyone of us might be wrong, or the death is in fact for ever.
The rational answer to the question of afterlife would be: Due to lack of information, I have no other choice but waiting till I am dead. And even though, if you didn't believed in anything, you can't be disappointed if there would be an afterlife and that you've would have lived life-long believing in a lie.
What do you think about Number 3?
@Okjustaguy,
I would enjoy participating in this discussion.
A question immediately arises…the answer to which might impact on how I proceed. So allow me to ask the question.
You wrote:
This is only a thought of mine, feel free to believe in what you want.
How does this differ from:
This is only a blind guess of mine, feel free to tell me your blind guess.
@Okjustaguy,
what do you think of "genetic memory"? Does it conform to your idea of life continuing?
I believe that we are living in sixty parallel universes at one time. Instead of dying, we rotate our state of being to the next universe, in a circular move, so that by the time we have returned to this universe we are in the form of new entities, with no memory of the past. Our sixty other selves do the same. So there is no dying, no afterlife.
@Okjustaguy,
Given that even the "I" of your dreams is often a bizarre stranger to the "I" of consciousness, I suggest you have a serious problem with any form of continuity hypothesis.
@fresco,
I often switch identities in my dreams. That way I dont hog up my minds screen with " me me me" a the time.
I once was a bear chasing me and I coud see the guy being chased, (me of course) and I had no thoughts , just anger.
@Okjustaguy,
OKjustaguy, you said that you find it hard to believe that, as some say, when you die you will just remain forever in a state of Non-existence. Your doubt is, as you say, because when you were born you passed from a state of Non-existence into the existence of this life and see no reason why you might not do it again after the end of this life. That's an interesting way of thinking about it, but I see a major set of differences between coming back to life after dying and coming to life after conception.
But more important from my perspective, I object to the notion that we could ever BE in a state of Non-existence. When I die there will no longer be a "me" to Non-exist (ignoring for the moment that there is no "me" now)..
@Frank Apisa,
Well,I made it clear,it doesn't matter what I tell you,I can't know the truth.
My blind guess,like you call it, is just a thought that seems more reasonable,than thinking in absolutes with heaven or forever-dead.
I claim that too me that sounds more logic.
Well and in my question I never asked you to tell me your blind guess,but discussing the conclusion of Number 3.
@farmerman,
Well,not really,because it's not your life living in.
One example,that may answer some other posts too:
1.You can't attach the individual consciousness to atoms,because of metabolism,no atom stays in the same place for ever.
2.You also can't attach the individual consciousness to the structure or constellation of this atoms,because of the "clone problem".
Just imagine at the same time you were born and opened your eyes in this world,somewhere else by randomness there would be a exact copy of your structure/constellation/(or whaterever you want to call it)born too.
You possibly can't have two bodies with one consciousness,so again there would be two different consciousness ,that may think the same,do the same and look the same,but live individual.
So if it can't be the atoms nor the structure what is it that makes "you" conscious.
What my basic thought is,when everything was in the big bang,how often do I need it to bang again,so that my individual existence in whatever form appears again,and makes me conscious,when will I open my eyes again somewhere?
@JLNobody,
Well the fact that you're alive and facing this existence problems,is a proof that universe has the potential to make you or me.
The "me" isn't your character with your memories and stuff,it's just your life itself.
And you won't recognize the time your non-existent,just the time you are existent.
Also there is no probability in existing or not,because you can either "be" or "be not".
@Okjustaguy,
If you want to bring in "logic" I suggest you first investigate the problem of defining "identity". In what sense is even a tree the
same tree as it was yesterday since its structure has altered ? One answer is that is
functionally the same from the point of view of an observer with a memory. So now ask yourself the question, for whom or what would that "self" have continuity especially in the case of hypothetical obliterated memory ? Are you in the realm of "soul" and "spirit" in which case, without empirical evidence, logic bites the dust.
@fresco,
Well no, am not in the realm of soul and spirit,
I'm just talking about that thing that makes your individual existence,
no memories or stuff will be taken with you in this thesis,
just the essence that makes you alive recreates itself like it did before.
Every single life you had has nothing to do with each other.
@Okjustaguy,
Quote:Well,I made it clear,it doesn't matter what I tell you,I can't know the truth.
It does appear that you cannot know the truth…and that neither can I or anyone else either. (Not really sure of that, but it does appear that way.)
Quote:My blind guess,like you call it, is just a thought that seems more reasonable,than thinking in absolutes with heaven or forever-dead.
I see. Okay.
But you do see that what you were calling a “belief” in this case…was just a blind guess—just like your “belief” that is seems more reasonable than something else…is a blind guess. Or do you have some knowledge that makes one blind guess more reasonable than another blind guess?
Quote:I claim that too me that sounds more logic.
I understand that your blind guess is that one of your blind guesses is more logical than other blind guesses.
(ASIDE: Sentences like that last one of yours is not going to win any points for your arguments. Try to be more careful. We all make mistakes, but that sentence was jarring.)
Quote:Well and in my question I never asked you to tell me your blind guess,but discussing the conclusion of Number 3.
But that essentially is simply asking for my blind guesses about the stuff we both acknowledge we do not know.
Correct?
@Frank Apisa,
Well,I'm not using any supernatural process that made me.
I'm just assuming,that because my existence happened once by itself,it might work again.
That's my interpretation of how I came to existence.
Would you deny that universe doesn't has the potential to make you(that conscioussness your right now aware of?),and that its is in fact possible it can happen again,maybe just enough time is needed that the big bang bangs out this conscioussness again or somehow.
In my less than humble opinion, life after death is just wishful thinking.There is no reason to be making wild guesses about it.
@Okjustaguy,
Quote:Well,I'm not using any supernatural process that made me.
Okay…and it is perfectly logical to blindly guess that there were no supernatural processes involved.
Quote:I'm just assuming,that because my existence happened once by itself,it might work again.
Sounds reasonable to me.
Quote:That's my interpretation of how I came to existence.
Not sure what you mean here, but if you are suggesting that you are blindly guessing that you came into existence by natural causes, rather than supernatural causes, I have no problem with that.
Quote:Would you deny that universe doesn't has the potential to make you(that conscioussness your right now aware of?),and that its is in fact possible it can happen again,maybe just enough time is needed that the big bang bangs out this conscioussness again or somehow.
I can guess anything I want to about what has happened…and what will happen.
What is your point except to share your guesses about those things and ask others for their guesses?
@edgarblythe,
Quote:In my less than humble opinion, life after death is just wishful thinking.There is no reason to be making wild guesses about it.
A lot of people want to suppose their "humble opinions" about things are not wild guesses, Edgar. As always, I appreciate you sharing yours.
@Okjustaguy,
Okjustaguy wrote:
We need to get to the point about what we do know, and what we can't know for now : What actually is life ?
{???}-Non-Existence--[Birth]---->Life----[Death]---->Non-Existence---{???}
Here is the thing that many people ignore or leave out when they are discussing this topic.
In this life, our bodies require energy to function. Without energy, the body stops functioning. We eat food and breath which is where the source of our energy comes from. Stop eating or breathing and our bodies stop working.
Okay now what is this thing that would survive or "transition" from this life into another? A "soul"? Well what is it? How does it function? Where does it get energy to move? It can't just have infinite amount of energy or require none to function. Why would we exist in a universe where everything requires energy to function yet there is this soul which doesn't or it exists in a realm where no energy is required to function. It makes no sense.
On another note. Our memories are "hard coded" (if you don't mind me using that term) into our brains. If you damage an area of the brain, more than likely the memories that may be stored in that area, will be effected. This means that if there is a soul, where do all your memories go? They can't just be hard coded onto nothing. That makes no sense either. So you die and get to take your memories with you that are recorded onto nothing but you still have them.
These two aspects reveal something very important. Either life after this life is 100% different than this life or there is no such thing as an after life. Those are the only two rational options.
@Frank Apisa,
Look,
{imagination}------------------------{philosophy}----------------------{science}
Well my thesis is between philosophy and science,it's an interpretation not saying that science is wrong,but having a philosophical touch to the whole life-death topic.
"In my less than humble opinion, life after death is just wishful thinking.
There is no reason to be making wild guesses about it."
Either you didn't read my text or you just don't get it,right now you are living a life after death(and yes i assume non-existence as death because it's the same before you were born and after you're dead).
Because of science I don't bother talking about the afterlife-issues religion gives to you,because there aren't any prooves,and they assume too much supernatural stuff.
I don't have any prooves either,but I don't mess up with science.
I consider the "coming to life" as a natural process that happens when it can.
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:In my less than humble opinion, life after death is just wishful thinking.There is no reason to be making wild guesses about it.
agree, i don't even bother being wishful, i was happy enough to not exist before i was born, i'll be more than happy to not exist after i die
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