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Is it wrong to call a soldier "baby killer"?

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 01:58 pm
Joe, great words!

Do you mind if I share with my friends?

Cycloptichorn
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the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 04:54 pm
I sent off a few letters this afternoon, so far only to the senators. I just spoke with my son, who told me that once the guy was moved to Pendleton, he was immediately imprisoned (nice treatment) and then moved a couple days later to somewhere else on base, where he is under restrictions but was allowed to make some calls. His understanding is that he will stand trial and probably do 90 days somewhere. I wish I had his mom's phone # so I could find out what's really going on, if she knows.
At least he's in the US, where hopefully, he will stay. I will see to it that he gets some help when he does come back home, you can bet on that.

Meanwhile, I look forward to hearing back from our elected officials. Since I mentioned that I will alert the media if the need arises, I can't imagine that at least a couple of them won't respond. I still feel like he needs to be watched over while he's in custody, to ensure that he's protected and gets the help he will need.
Again, thank you all. I feel a little more optimistic about his future. I was also able to use this "opportunity" to convince my sons to change their ss registration to conscientious objectors, for whatever that's worth.
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 06:34 pm
Setanta.

Embarrassed Sorry, I really need to stop entering into touchy threads when I'm too busy to think clearly. Legal and lawful are synonyms so I'll let that stand. My initial post was meant to be somewhat flippant and I was indeed stating what amounted to BS. I have a tendancy to do that when I'm not being serious. If it caused offense to you or any others who have served then I'm sorry.

Now, as far as DIRECT orders are concerned, could you please point me towards where they are covered in the UMCOJ. I cannot seem to find any mention of disobeying an order other than that which I already quoted.

The only point that I was trying to make is this;

If a soldier is ordered by his commanding officer to kill a baby, the soldier has the right to refuse the order. If he/she does not, I see no reason why they shouldn't be called a "baby killer".

Blatham.

To keep the spirit alive I offer you this;

The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit.
--W. Somerset Maugham

Laughing
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 06:37 pm
Fools are only laughed at, wits are hated.
Alexander Pope
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 06:42 pm
Shocked Damn, I'd rather be laughed at. I'll have to stop quoting.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 06:43 pm
some people are just short cited.
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 07:01 pm
Some cited people are just short.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 07:02 pm
Laughing
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 09:37 pm
Laughing Ahem, anyway, I just found this and it made me think of this thread.

Quote:
In Vietnam, a Clear Line to Avoid

By John Stuart Blackton
Monday, June 21, 2004; Page A19


The Justice Department has advised the White House that President Bush (and those who follow his orders) may contravene treaties, U.S. law and international law under the broad doctrine of "necessity."


This advice contrasts sharply with that of an earlier White House, under Lyndon Johnson, during the Vietnam War. In that war, the decision was made to employ the full powers of the commander in chief to buttress and reinforce the Geneva Conventions and the criminal sanctions under the U.S. Code that followed from these conventions. Attorney General John Ashcroft and others in the administration have suggested that the recent disclosures about abuses at Abu Ghraib prison are simply a reflection of the universal "hard side" of war. It was ever thus and will forever be is the implication. Yet the record of the U.S. military in Vietnam, not our most glorious military undertaking, suggests otherwise.

Far more attention was paid in Vietnam than in Iraq to ensuring an environment in which every American combatant understood the basic rules of the Geneva Conventions. These principles were part of universal military training, reinforced by the chain of command in the field and largely, although certainly not universally, adhered to by the troops.

The International Red Cross sought assurances in December 1964 from the U.S. and Vietnamese governments that their armed forces were abiding by the Geneva Conventions. These requests prompted a policy review that led the U.S. Military Assistance Command Vietnam to appoint a joint U.S.-Vietnamese military committee in September 1965 to work out details on the application of the Geneva Conventions in Vietnam. Every draftee and volunteer was given, during basic training, mandatory instruction in the principles of the conventions. Soldiers were tested on that training, and the results were recorded in their personnel jackets. This training was repeated at successive stages, and all soldiers arriving in Vietnam received orientation in the Geneva Conventions during their initial processing.

Every soldier also received a plastic pocket card bearing the signature of our commander in chief, Lyndon Baines Johnson. It was headed "The Enemy in Your Hands" and summarized the conventions in simple, clear language. Item No. 3, "MISTREATMENT OF ANY CAPTIVE IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE. EVERY SOLDIER IS PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ENEMY IN HIS HANDS," was followed by this unambiguous guidance: "It is both dishonorable and foolish to mistreat a captive. It is also a punishable offense. Not even a beaten enemy will surrender if he knows his captors will torture or kill him. He will resist and make his capture more costly. Fair treatment of captives encourages the enemy to surrender."

A program of instruction for all U.S. and Vietnamese military units was established in Vietnam to teach the basic rules for handling prisoners. Regulations were promulgated instructing U.S. units and advisers to identify and keep records of all captives turned over to the Vietnamese, including specifying to whom the captives were transferred.

The signed order from President Johnson in our pockets was a critical element of accountability and personal responsibility. In the event that any of us might be instructed to treat prisoners in an inhumane manner, we were in a position to recognize and refuse an unlawful order that contravened a signed direct order from the president.

There were, of course, American abuses in the handling of prisoners in Vietnam, as there were in World War II and all other wars. But U.S. soldiers who violated the policy on torture and prisoner abuse in Vietnam knew precisely where the lines were drawn, and they knew that they could not hide behind either an ambiguous Army policy or the defense that they were "just following orders." Serious departures from policy were far more prevalent in the undeclared and covert theaters of the Indochina war (Laos and Cambodia), where accountability was reduced, the lines of military authority often obscure, and external oversight from the legislative branch and from the press nonexistent.

The Defense Department has established a military environment in Iraq that is more reminiscent of those covert wars than of the overt war in Vietnam. The White House legal counsel's written opinion that the Geneva Conventions are now "obsolete" and have been rendered "quaint" diminishes accountability and personal responsibility for our soldiers in Iraq. The suggestion that the doctrine of "necessity" has broad application to our military interrogation of prisoners in Iraq is worrisome.

The Indochina war was not the U.S. Army's finest hour, but the occupation of Iraq may, in at least some respects, be remembered as one of its darkest.

The writer is a retired senior foreign service officer and a veteran of Army service in Southeast Asia. He was also a professor at the National War College. His e-mail address is [email protected].


© 2004 The Washington Post Company


Link to article.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 10:27 pm
Joe Nation wrote:

if that's what you thought,
or called thought,


Joe Nation

Great stuff Joe.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2004 04:15 am
Thank you, Bill.

Cycloptichorn -- Everything on this site is quotable, I am constantly relating 'the brilliance of the many' exposed here to my friends.

Feel free, you are.

Joe

==
Adrian-- great article. I get the sense that many in this administration aren't aware of how much they believe in American exceptionalism. I'm sure, being exceptional themselves, never having had to wait for a tee time or a table, living lives that are somehow suspended above the rest of ours, they see this country, the USA, as somehow exempt from bothersome things like the Geneva Conventions, World Courts and the like. They are the same people who expect to make a retail return without a receipt, only they have brought that same self-centered blindness to the international level.

They also have a belief that history began with Ronald Reagan, but don't get me started.

Joe
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the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2004 05:20 am
This is the wealthiest cabinet ever, I read.
They are a bunch of spoiled brats quite used to getting their way, to the detriment of the rest of us.
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the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 07:55 pm
Well, things are happening. I first sent e-mails to all four reps, in the state he grew up in as well as the one he enlisted from. Nobody responded to my e-mails. Then I called them all to follow up. Senator Kennedy's office called me back right away. Then the democratic senator from his state called me back. We talked for about 1/2 hour. They seem to want to do something, but aren't sure how effective it might be. What I asked for is that they just let the powers-that-be know that they know his situation, and make sure that he gets help rather than sent back to Iraq. I heard a horror story from his senator, who is also the veteran's rep in that state, about another soldier with extenuating circumstances who received no sympathy from the military (and the guy wasn't even AWOL, but had a family tragedy). What it comes down to is that, because of the new federal healthcare privacy law the soldier himself needs to ask for the help. I was told to try to get the soldier or his mom to contact him, and to mention my name so that he can get right on it. I was finally able to contact his mom and give her the information, and she will contact the senator's veteran's aide this week. She has also been dealing with Kerry's office and said they've been very nice. My experience was different, perhaps because I am not a family member.
Currently he is at the base and under no restrictions, he is even allowed to leave the base occasionally, but it is still possible that he get sent back to Iraq. A boy from his unit died there last week or so. (From Attleboro, MA). He went and saw "Farenheit 9/11, but has been discouraged from talking about it on base! He has encouraged his mom to go see the movie, though.
Turns out the eval he had deems him to be suffering from PTSD as well as BiPolar disorder.
His mom doesn't want his story made public because she thinks it might be humiliating for him.
I disagree, but that's his call.
She told me that when he was overseas, he used to write to her and tell her how proud he was to be there, and that he would give his life to defend the Iraqi people. He is a good marine who just took more than he could bear.
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Karzak
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 10:28 pm
There is a very big difference between

1. trying to avoid collateral damage but causing some anyway

2. not trying to avoid it, and causing some

3. Trying to cause it.

It is the difference between an accident (1), negligence (2), and murder (3).

BTW Kerry is certanly guilty of number 2, possibly 3. Most soldiers try for 1.
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the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2004 05:27 am
Oh is that right? Where's your proof?
Conversely, Bush, though he himself never bothered to fight, is certainly guilty of # 2 and 3.
My proof is on the news, daily.
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Karzak
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2004 09:33 am
the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
Oh is that right? Where's your proof?
Conversely, Bush, though he himself never bothered to fight, is certainly guilty of # 2 and 3.
My proof is on the news, daily.


LOL, stry to stick with just the facts, OK? I know it is a lot to ask of you Rolling Eyes

First off, kerry amitted he was a war criminal.

"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions"

Secondly, as to your claims Bush is guilty of 2 and/or 3, you are just completely disconnected with the facts.
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the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2004 06:43 am
Okay, so let me get this straight:
You're saying Kerry is guilty of your #1 and #2 because he followed orders and went along with his company in doing so? Do you think he and his unit took it upon themselves to do so, are do you acknowledge that that's the way the war was fought in that time? And what is wrong with his coming back and saying "This is WRONG?" You would rather that he liked it? And kept his mouth shut about it? Kerry helped put an end to a war we couldn't win, and which had already killed many thousands of Americans.
Conversely, George Bush KNOWINGLY started a war based on lies, which has killed near a thousand Americans so far, as well as untold thousands of innocent civilians. I call that murder, and I call that
#3: Trying to cause it. You can't deny that he is ultimately responsible for these thousands of deaths, as well as thousands of maimings, torture, etc. He who has no idea what war involves, he who doesn't care, either way. It takes a big man to admit wrong-doing. Kerry is capable, Bush is NOT. How can you say otherwise? Additionally, how can you assert that Bush is not responsible for these acts? It's HIS war! That's the reality. There is NO disconnect there, YOU just don't want to know the truth.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2004 08:49 am
Let me throw my 2 cents in here.
Suzy,When you call someone a "baby-killer",you do so knowing that you are trying to stir up hate.That is wrong.

NO soldier intends to kill innocents,especially children.But in war,it happens.The enemy does not always fight the way you want.They do hide in places that civilians are also in.
When you are taking fire,you return it.You don't have time to make sure that the only people there are enemy soldiers,doing so would put you and your unit in danger.
In every war ever fought,innocent people have died.
In the last war that the left thinks was right(WW2)thousands of innocent people,including children,died.Nobody called those troops "baby-killers".
In the example you started with,about your friend,there is more to the story you aren't telling us.
Why was that young marine ordered to use a grenade? Was his unit taking fire from that building?
Did he KNOW there were kids there? What were the circumstances? Why did he use an incendiary grenade,instead of a fragmentation grenade?
What caught fire inside the building?

No soldier wants to kill kids,but it is unavoidable in war.You grieve,then you go on.
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the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2004 09:14 am
I've told you all the details I know, MM. The guy was the weapons specialist for his unit and manned the grenade launcher at that point. Since he went AWOL, I've only seen him twice (plus he called me on Mother's Day), and in the times I've seen him, I have not had much opportunity to discuss the situation at length, due to mixed company, etc. So, as I mentioned, the information I have comes from a third-party, as relayed by the guy to my son.
Personally, I don't consider him a baby killer. It's what he thinks.
If anyone's a baby killer, it's Bush. And scumbags with the mentality of Lindey England. Sometimes war and the fear that accompanies it, creates that mentality.
Sometimes you do grieve and you go on.
Sometimes you realize you're just doing what has to be done, despite the horrible "side effects" and you justify it that way.
Or you think it's pretty cool and you enjoy it. They may be kids but they're enemy kids.
Or you find it really hard to deal with, no matter what the justification, as seems to be the case here.
I don't believe kids were purposely killed, although I may have said that previously. I believe that if children were known to be there, for whatever reason the place was fired upon, it was thought to justify the collateral damage at the time. And there is always the possibility that it was not known who was in the building, if anybody. I guess.
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Earl Grey
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2004 12:14 pm
What is the difference between killing civilians in general and killing babies? Innocence? Who says only babies can be innocent?

Quote:
NO soldier intends to kill innocents...

That is strictly speaking not true, unless you want to redefine the word soldier. There are and probably have always been soldiers who wish to kill innocents, out of hate or soem other reason.
Then there is the difficulty of defining innocent. Is a civilian who contributes to the national economy by going to work every day an innocent?
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