What does "libertarian" mean to you?

blatham - LMAO Statstics suck eh?

WHO stats http://www5.who.int/mental_health/main.cfm?p=0000000149

per 100,000 men women

UK 11.8 3.3
US 18.6 4.4
Can 19.6 5.1
Den 20.9 5.1
Swed 20.1 7.8
Nor 18.2 6.7
Isr 10.5 2.6

Phoenix and timber

We are all old farts, and it is probably intellectually prudent to admit it. My daughter recently directed my attention to the music of Eminem and even though I'm a liberal fellow, it took a bit of doing on her part to compensate for my inertia. (and he is astoundlingly talented, I am happy to report)

I recall reading somewhere that women are far more likely to ATTEMPT suicide than are men, but that men are overwhelmingly more likely to accomplish the act. A woman, for instance, might swallow a bottle of soporifics then call a dear freind to "say goodbye", where a man might just blow the top of his own head off with a shotgun. Just an observation, and not really of pertinance in this thread. Pardon the digression.




timber

Walter

Just saw your earlier post now, re me using the term 'socialist'. Yes. That really underlines the binary frame in which discourse in the US is generally restricted now in these matters.

Canada has been influenced to some degree by US notions (much of the media pouring in here is American) and even trade negotiations have witnessed an insistence that we adopt a more American stance re social programs, but most of us push back.

timber

Yes, I think that is probably accurate. And it pretty clearly reflects which gender is expected to do clean up.

That chart fishin' posted is from 1982 -- twenty years ago. I'm not so sure it is trustworthy and that the site isn't biased as it has access to more current figures. We don't have the highest suicide rate unless you were to compare big cities to big cities I suspect. Norway was on top for some reason on many charts I've seen (cold, dark, depressing -- or too much vodka?) The crime rates are all over the map for the last twenty years and again, the comparison of big cities would be more telling (preferably close to the same populations). Unfortunately, I tried to get these statistics but there was a pretty hefty charge to get that kind of detail. There might be something in U.S. Government.

Whether this has anything to do with the authoritarianism of a government, the opposite of libertarianism, is debatable. Some people like to work and live under authority and it is undoubtedly that it's because they haven't experienced anything else. I agree that less authoritarianism (the IRS being one good example) and more libertarianism is an ideal to be reached for. I just believe that it's goal is a utopian society we can never reach because you'll never get everyone to agree and abide by the principals of libertarianism (as meager as they are). Accusing anyone of not understanding what it is is a playing games. That it usually seems disguised in far right wing politics is a truism for me. The bait-and-switch of the far right who would prefer to have us all conform to being Christian, aggressive capitalists with little regard to criminal activity in business but accuse government of being dishonest. The mantra is too large a government. Less government meaning it will be more honest. If there's a smart salesperson out that can sell that load of bull to me, I'd like to find them. Ooops -- they're in our government and media already!

More than 700 Coloradans took their own lives in 2001, a 17 percent increase from the previous year and a rate that keeps the state near the top in the nation in suicides.

Coloradans 75 and older are most likely to take their own lives, according to the state's vital statistics. Those under age 25 are least likely. Yet in 2001, 94 Coloradans ages 15 to 24 committed suicide.

LW

Yes, I share your 'bait and switch' notion. I suspect that Pat Robertson's or Bill Gates' notions of what governments' proper role should be (and what section of the population NEEDS governance) wouldn't diverge much from your average 18th century French aristocrat.

LW

Norway has probably the most restrictive alcohol control policy in Europe, and the consumtion of vodka isn't that high at all (compared to other European countries):

Alcohol Norway

Obviously they are working in Norway hard with their suicide problem there:
Norwegian Suicide Prevention

That's good to hear, Walter. I know that Russia is really in a battle with alcoholism -- their entire army were noted as permeated with the disease (one of the factors of the downfall of communism?) I read that AA was making big strikes in that country. Alcohol and drugs area associated closely with crimes and also suicide.

I like the way you think. Far too many folks will perceive they HAVE evidence without ever CONSIDERING that evidence. I suppose it is comforting to find support for a cherished idea almost regardless of the nature of that support. I sense that many find it easy to do.



timber

This is a very good point, but I think it misses a key point.

An anecdote about this or that person who has moved off the welfare roles only to become homeless, means nothing if we don't know what he or she did to take personal responsibility during that transition. Did the person try to get a job, try to become self-sufficient? Isn't personal responsibility part of the equation?

My heart goes out to anyone who lives in squalor. As a society we need to help these people as we can, where we can, but those who make destructive choices day in and day out, should be left to the consequences of those choices. Propping them up merely delays the day when they might realize that their squalid life is not just "the luck of the draw" but a result of how they choose to play their hand.

A little personal history might help explain my perspective...

I was a drunk and a drug user when I was young. Before I'd even turned 21 I'd already reached a point where I frequently suffered black outs and went through severe withdrawals when I tried not drinking for a few days--usually in a feeble attempt to prove to myself that I didn't have a problem.

The train wreck I was making of my life caught up with me just shy of my 21st birthday, while I was in the Navy. At 9:30 on a Wednesday morning--a workday for me--while attending sick call for an unrelated problem, a blood test revealed that I had a 0.225 blood alcohol level. That's almost 3 times the 0.08% BAC at which you are considered intoxicated in most states, yet aside from reeking of alcohol, I showed no signs of intoxication, so conditioned to alcohol had my body become. The Navy, as you might expect, chose to take this seriously, and began taking measures to deal with me, measures I wasn't too happy about.

So, what do you do when you've screwed up your life at 20 and you don't want to deal with the repercussions of the choices you've made? You call Mom and Dad, which is what I did. I told them the Navy was wrong, the blood test was wrong, everybody and everything was to blame but me. They asked what I planned to do, and I replied that since I couldn't accept the actions the Navy planned to take, I would just let them kick me out and then come home and figure out what to do from there.

After a brief pause, my father's exact words were, "Don't come here. There's nothing for you here." My mother followed up by suggesting that perhaps the Navy knew what they were talking about and that I might want to listen to them. As you might guess, I was not terribly happy at this response at the time, though I have thanked my parents many times over in the years since.

Far from not caring, my parents cared too much to let me run from the problems I had created. They knew that simply letting me run from the consequences of my actions would almost certainly keep me from learning what I needed to learn. They made me face the music, and at long last when I found myself with nowhere to run and with no way to wiggle out of the mess I'd gotten into, I faced it, accepted it, and began to look at how I needed to change my actions and my choices to ensure--as much as is possible--that I would never find myself in those straits again.

I chose to bore you all with this story because I believe that we as a society need to care enough about those whose choices put them in poverty to let them face the consequences of their choices, and that merely propping up those who continue to make bad choices simply teaches them that the consequences of their actions can be avoided.

It is important to note that I had help repairing my life and getting my head screwed back on straight. Likewise, we as a society should be there to help those who choose to help themselves. But until they make that choice, our helping hand is far more likely to hold them down, than help them up.

Anyhow, hope I didn't bore too many of you too much.

Thanks, Mom and Dad.

tress

I am knocked quite over by your honesty and the trust you grant us all.

I do not consider that I hold an answer, even in a broad and general statistical sense, to the causes and solutions for poverty and unhappiness. My protest is against certainty on such hugely complex matters, and against uninspected assumptions commonly held to be self-evident truths.

One summer, driving taxi in my home town, I picked up a native Indian girl about 16 years old. As we were driving, she pointed to the power lines up above and said, "I've never understood how they get the water through there." Some, too many, even if born with full faculties and potential, are born into social or family situations which disadvantage them profoundly. And I think, if I may be so bold, that folks who are born into wealth and great advantage, commonly have no clue of such realities.

timber -- can you cash a check twenty years old? Nope. There's a reason for that -- it's called "stale dated."

The site is being fixed to try and stop the duplicate post problem. If you see an error screen, get an Explorer shut down pop-up or other kind of crash -- log out of the site and back in. Your post likely is already on the boards. I had two occassions where my post was multiplied more than four time a few days ago. One of the guides (timber will note his duplication) or moderators will try to fix duplications that do show up but if you want to post an event as a problem with the site, try the Help button (although the chance of it not being seen is remote!)

Yes, the numbers listed are old. The latest numbers can be found on the WHO's WWW site and they stand about the same. blatham's link is to that very WHO site.



Why would the suicide and crime rates for big cities be more telling than overall crime rates for the entire country? I'm totally lost on why they would be any more relevant...

while it may or may not be relevant, an article in today's Rocky Mountian News (Denver colorado) detailing the rise in suicide over the past year denotes 2 things 1. the growing suicide is mostly occuring in the age group over 75, (which might very well be a topic in itself as to disregard for the aging as well as medical interventions past the point of being desired) 2. the growing suicide rate in the western U.S. is believed to be part and parcel of the "western" ideas of rugged individualism. for what its worth.

I AM A Libertarian
I really follow the 'dictionary' definition of Libertarian. Not a republican in liberatarian skin or disgruntled democrat, someone that believes we need to mend the system to be "of the people and for the people". We have allowed the politician to line their pockets and prop up dictators long enough and we need to revamp the system back to the original thought that every man and woman are equal and my property is my property. Look at the congress giving themselves raises when the whole system is falling down around them. The phoney millionaires that 'donate' their salaries while passing tax breaks that give them millions, retirement programs that leave them and their families wanting for nothing for eternity. Before there is a violent and bloody revolution that would dwarf 9-11 we best start screaming about the wrongs these mugwumps continue to force on us...

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