Bernie's In

@maxdancona,

I just wish you would actually respond to things I actually said. I clearly said he wouldn't change his core views, but that anyone can see he responds to public pressure just like any other politician. I used his stepping up of language about black issues in response to pressure from blm as an example of Bernie adjusting his message to public pressure. Another example of Bernie changing the tone of his message in response to public opinion is his immediate stepping up of rhetoric about gun control in the wake of the latest shooting and questions about his gun views.

We could have a decent disagreement if you stopped being an idiot and started actually responding to what I actually say, instead of whatever it is that you imagine I think.

and I'm not pretending a goddam thing about my loyalties to any candidate. I've consistently said :
-that I will support whatever candidate wins the democratic nomination
-that I prefer Biden over Sanders or Clinton, if Biden runs
-that Hillary is my second choice, not because Bernie doesn't stand for all the right things, but because she'd have the better chance of beating the GOP candidate.

Find me something in my posts where I've contradicted those three things, or STFU.

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@snood,

He didn't change his views at all. He started delivering in a way other people could process it.

He is a ******* saint.

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@Lash,

I don't know how Bernie (or anybody else) could ever live up to the impossible pedestal you've got him on. To hear you tell it, he doesn't even make strictly strategic moves out of political expediency (which there's nothing wrong with, but below Bernie I guess). Unreal.

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@snood,

I feel about Bernie the same way I felt about Obama in 2008.

The way I feel about Hillary Clinton hasn't changed since then.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I feel about Bernie the same way I felt about Obama in 2008.

The way I feel about Hillary Clinton hasn't changed since then.

Were you one of those that felt very let down that Obama couldn't fulfill all his promises, or change Washington politics?

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@snood,

Quote:

Were you one of those that felt very let down that Obama couldn't fulfill all his promises, or change Washington politics?

dont pretend that this is a statement of fact because according to me and others he barely tried. Being an narcissistic egotistical prick is hardly a new approach.

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@snood,

Well, I've watched the man on and off for a few years. I believe what I see. When you see Bernie flip on a conviction for votes, point it out to me and I'll acknowledge it.

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@snood,

Yes, I am disappointed that Obama didn't fulfill his promise. I still think he was better than Hillary Clinton (or Bill Clinton for that matter).

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

Well, I've watched the man on and off for a few years. I believe what I see. When you see Bernie flip on a conviction for votes, point it out to me and I'll acknowledge it.

Are you sure? Because when I've pointed out Bernie suddenly tailoring his message to placate public outcry and that that is a political calculation, you dont seem to acknowledge that.

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@snood,

Snood you dont knock someones God without repercussions. Keeping in mind that if Bernie wins the nomination I will vote for him.

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@snood,

And as I said and as you should know, that isn't changing a position. Hillary has totally flipped on a few positions. Bernie: not one.

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@Lash,

Okay, I conceded several posts ago that he probably won't change core positions. What I've been pointing out over and over is a refutation of the opinion you seem to have that Bernie doesn't watch polls or pay attention to public opinion and adjust accordingly like everyone else. I will vote for him if he wins the nomination. But Bernie will make shifts in the way he conducts his campaign solely based on pressure from polls and public opinion because it makes sense to do so politically. There's nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is to act as if everything he does is out of some godlike benificence.

Something I had to acknowledge grudgingly over 6 years of watching Obama finding out what he has to do to get things done is that he had to work with the structure that is there. I still think he is an exceptional man with a good heart, but I had to give up some illusions that he would bend DC to his will just because his ideas were good. I was a pretty big promoter for Obama during his campaigns, but I don't think I took on anywhere near the fever pitch of hero worship I see you doing for Bernie. He's just a man, Lash. He's a good man and he has good ideas, but the system isn't going to fall down and cower at his feet just because he's right. And you should know that.

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@snood,

What Lash means is that Bernie is no flip-flopper. Or in any case much much much less so than his immediate adversary, Hillary, who keeps changing her mind whenever the winds of media attention change direction.

It makes sense to me. The fact that he pumped up racial equality as a campaign issue following BLM activism is no evidence of changing his stance, since he has consistently supported racial equality for decades. He was arrested by the police for it.

You seem irked by Lash's dedication to Bernie. I sort of get that but to me, a little enthusiasm is not a bad thing. A little passion and faith can be useful. We can't all be cynics, now can we?

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@Olivier5,

I apologize for the length of this post. I wanted to try to be clear.

Quote:

What Lash means is that Bernie is no flip-flopper. Or in any case much much much less so than his immediate adversary, Hillary, who keeps changing her mind whenever the winds of media attention change direction.

I don’t see Bernie as a flip-flopper at all. I believe he has been constant in his core values and I don’t see him as fickle or phony, but as someone who has the courage of his convictions. That is not what I have been saying, or what my contention is here. The only difference I have with Lash is that she doesn’t even acknowledge that Bernie will respond in his campaign to pressures and polls just like any other politician seeking office. I have seen him be canny and calculating in the information he puts out and the tone in which he puts it out. The two recent examples I’ve cited were:

1) When Bernie was waylaid by BLM members and besieged by a media saying that he was out of touch with current black issues. He made some immediate and drastic changes in his campaign. He started appearing with well-known black intellectual/activist Cornell West. He hired a black female national press director. He added a ton of verbiage addressing black issues on his website – these things were all done within days of being confronted by BLM and it was done expressly to gain the favor of a particular constituency. This is NOT good ole Bernie just doing the same thing he has done for years, no matter what people or polls say, this WAS Bernie making decisions based on political expediency. Lash seems to think Bernie is exempt from the necessities of making political expedient moves. It doesn’t make him bad, or just like Hillary, or anything of the sort. It does make him a normal human politician.

2) When the latest gun massacre happened, several press releases come out pointing out that Hillary was slightly more left-leaning than Bernie on this one issue. Hillary jumped at the opportunity to get on the news and try to capitalize on the fact that on the one issue of gun control, she has been slightly more progressive. That same day, I posted “Bet Bernie does some quick “evolving” on this issue” . That wasn’t a good choice of words, because it suggests he would change his views. I just was predicting he had to react to the political pressure, and he did. The next day, Bernie started touting his strong advocacy for gun control in many venues. Again, this is NOT good ole Bernie just doing the same thing he has done for years, no matter what people or polls say, this WAS Bernie making decisions based on political expediency. Lash seems to think Bernie is exempt from the necessities of making political expedient moves. It doesn’t make him bad, or just like Hillary, or anything of the sort. It does make him a normal human politician.

Quote:

It makes sense to me. The fact that he pumped up racial equality as a campaign issue following BLM activism is no evidence of changing his stance, since he has consistently supported racial equality for decades. He was arrested by the police for it.

It doesn’t mean he changed his stance, but just that he will react to political pressure just like any other politician. In that way he’s a predictable human politician.

Quote:

You seem irked by Lash's dedication to Bernie. I sort of get that but to me, a little enthusiasm is not a bad thing. A little passion and faith can be useful. We can't all be cynics, now can we?

I have to be clear here. Lash and her enthusiasm have single-handedly made me re-think Bernie several times. Her fierceness for Bernie is remarkable. Who wouldn’t want someone like that advocating for them? It reminds me of me in 2007/08. I had to learn the hard way that pureness of intent won’t make Washington change its stripes and fall in line. I had to learn that even though we send a good man (or woman) with pure motives to Washing ton, he will have to work within what politics and entrenched power will allow.
I don’t have a major disagreement with Lash about Bernie. I think he’s exceptional, and I will vote for him if he gets the nomination. I just get uncomfortable when the hero worship and adulation takes on phrases like “He’s a saint” and “He’s like John the Baptist”. He’s just a man who makes political calculations and who will have to come to terms with the limits of pure intentions.

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@snood,

Quote:

This is NOT good ole Bernie just doing the same thing he has done for years, no matter what people or polls say, this WAS Bernie making decisions based on political expediency

This is simply not true. All of the work Bernie has done to reach out the African Americans and the BLM movement was a continuation of his days working to integrate student housing in the 1960s.

This is by no means a new issue for Bernie Sanders.

It is going to be interesting to see what he does with the gun control issue.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
This is NOT good ole Bernie just doing the same thing he has done for years, no matter what people or polls say, this WAS Bernie making decisions based on political expediency

This is simply not true. All of the work Bernie has done to reach out the African Americans and the BLM movement was a continuation of his days working to integrate student housing in the 1960s.

This is by no means a new issue for Bernie Sanders.

It is going to be interesting to see what he does with the gun control issue.

I know it's getting to be a dead horse when I'm starting to repeat myself over and over. If Bernie had not been confronted by BLM he would not have immediately hired a black public relations expert, flooded his website with black friendly material, and altered his stump speech to include the names of all the black men that died in the last year at the hands of the police. If you believe he would have done this regardless you are blind. The same thing goes with the adjustments he made in his stump speech after the last gun massacre. If you can't see that you're blind. I am now done with this as the horse is beginning to stink.

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@snood,

... and then he got into a time machine to go back 50 years to work with CORE to organize protests about segregated student housing.

So, he listened to the BLM protesters, who should be a natural constituency for a progressive candidate, and then adapted his message based on their concerns which he has shared with them since his days in college. What is the problem with that?

Not only has Hillary Clinton failed to this point to publish a complete policy on racial justice, she has also not even used her time machine to change her problematic record. Her record includes vocal support for "tough on crime" policies that exacerbated the incarceration rate for minorities.

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@snood,

I looked back to see what your first claim was - because it has taken many forms.

You initially said

Quote:

To hear you tell it, he doesn't even make strictly strategic moves out of political expediency (which there's nothing wrong with, but below Bernie I guess). Unreal.

Words are a big deal to me. We've dickered a bit over this same word before.
ex·pe·di·en·cy
the quality of being convenient and practical despite possibly being improper or immoral; convenience.

Later you said Bernie "tailored his speech." We all do this according to each person we're speaking to.

Did Bernie tailor his speech? I think so. As I said: all God's children tailor their speech. Is he politically expedient like Hillary Clinton and the clown car and almost every other politician I've ever heard speak? No, he is not.

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@Lash,

OK Lash. I give up. He's ******* perfectly incorruptible and flawless. I'll still vote for him and support him if he wins the nomination.

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@maxdancona,

And the gun issue?

1 Reply

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