2
   

I am looking for a hedonistic debate

 
 
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 09:56 am
I never said this earlier and I have only presented myself in such a way that I was doing nothing more than posting information and such, but I am saying it here now which is that I am looking to have a debate with someone regarding my arguments which support hedonism (the idea that pleasure is the only true good thing in life). Now before you even think of coming up with any arguments refuting hedonism, I have already considered all possible refutations to hedonism others might come up with and I have refuted those refutations with arguments of my own. So it is important that you not only read all of my arguments, but also my refutations to the replies others have made to me since all of that is very likely to have already addressed and refuted your own personal arguments.

Therefore, I am going to present my arguments and the replies of others and my refutations to their replies. But it is on a separate forum since it is so long and I am instead just going to give you the link to that forum with all of the replies from others:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/scientific-proof-of-hedonism.1128348/

If you lose interest in this debate, then you are free to opt out of this debate with me anytime. Just make sure that when you do so, that you do not disrespect me by mocking me or having scorn towards me because that would be not having full respect and full compassion towards me as a person.
 
chai2
 
  5  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 09:58 am
@MozartLink,
MozartLink wrote:

Just make sure that when you do so, that you do not disrespect me by mocking me or having scorn towards me because that would be not having full respect and full compassion towards me as a person.


But what if that's giving me pleasure?
MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 09:59 am
@chai2,
The fact of the matter is, I do have moral values of my own independent of my hedonistic ones even though these morals would be neutral (neither truly good or bad). In other words, I would still have full compassion and respect towards others and would not harm or demean them if it somehow brought me pleasure. I have full compassion and respect towards others and I expect the same from others.
chai2
 
  3  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 10:03 am
@MozartLink,
What if I don't have the same morals?
MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 10:07 am
@chai2,
The fact is that just going up and disrespecting someone you don't know can get you blown away if you disrespect the wrong person. It is always a good idea to respect people you don't know while also keeping an open mind since they could be someone actually not worthy of respect at all. It is never a good idea to disrespect people you don't know and is no way of making friends at all.
argome321
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 10:49 am
@MozartLink,
Well good and bad aren't scientific terms... they are merely human constructs to describe how we feel.

Pain is neither good nor bad, It's job is to inform our bodies that something is wrong...and perhaps we should do something about it to maintain homeostasis

The.e purpose of life varies from human to human and is itself subjective.
Life by its's very nature is not void of pain and suffering..including the entire birthing process.

Entropy, and finally death doesn't sound much like a happy ending?

Some may consider other things more important or more satisfying and more rewarding than pleasure?

Your argument may tend to sound a little like Ayn Rand an objectivist.
MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 10:55 am
@argome321,
The version of good I'm talking about here would be the version that gives us a sense of joy, inspiration, motivation, etc. We cannot be motivated, inspired, or have joy at all without our feelings of pleasure since those things are scientific and come from a certain region of our brains. That region being the areas of our brains that experience the feelings of motivation, inspiration, and joy. All our thoughts are not any form of joy, motivation, and inspiration without our feelings. They are all just the "thinking" function of our brains. They are just the thoughts of motivation, inspiration, joy, etc. and not the actual experience of those things without our actual feelings of them. If we had no pleasure, then it would be nothing more than us choosing our thoughts and actions and it wouldn't be any form of joy, inspiration, or motivation at all. Therefore, since this is the case, then we cannot have that version of good I just mentioned in our lives. We cannot experience it without our actual feelings of pleasure.
chai2
 
  3  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 10:56 am
@MozartLink,
MozartLink wrote:

The fact is that just going up and disrespecting someone you don't know can get you blown away if you disrespect the wrong person. It is always a good idea to respect people you don't know while also keeping an open mind since they could be someone actually not worthy of respect at all. It is never a good idea to disrespect people you don't know and is no way of making friends at all.


So what if I don't care about making friends with some random person on the internet? How do I know you're "the wrong person"? Maybe I'm the wrong person, and you should watch out for me.

I can respect or disrespect who I please, depending on the pleasure it gives me.

You see where I'm going with this, and I'm not going to continue.

The fact that you're telling people to read a link, opt out, follow your rules, read everything you have to say, etc. is no way to address someone, and something I find disrespectful.

I've not interested in this subject, but that doesn't mean I couldn't come on here at any time and post my Aunt Millie's recipe for butter rum cake. Or as many times as I want. Or discuss hedonism, or not.

Of course, none of that can stop you from telling me, or others, what you want us to do, and how to do it.
MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 11:05 am
@chai2,
So if Hitler disrespected the Jews by harming them or by any other means as he so pleases, then he is free to do so and me telling Hitler that he should respect the Jews and not harm and not have scorn towards them is disrespect?
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 11:11 am
@MozartLink,
We're not talking about hitler and that situation.

We're talking about you. No other meaning than what I specifically said at that specific time, about what you specifically wrote.

Actually, I was talking about you, but I'm not going to now you're making stuff up as you go along.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 11:12 am
@MozartLink,
The version of good I'm talking about here would be the version that gives us a
Quote:
sense of joy, inspiration, motivation, etc. We cannot be motivated, inspired, or have joy at all without our feelings of pleasure since those things are scientific and come from a certain region of our brains. That region being the areas of our brains that experience the feelings of motivation, inspiration, and joy. All our thoughts are not any form of joy, motivation, and inspiration without our feelings. They are all just the "thinking" function of our brains. They are just the thoughts of motivation, inspiration, joy, etc. and not the actual experience of those things without our actual feelings of them. If we had no pleasure, then it would be nothing more than us choosing our thoughts and actions and it wouldn't be any form of joy, inspiration, or motivation at all. Therefore, since this is the case, then we cannot have that version of good I just mentioned in our lives. We cannot experience it without our actual feelings of pleasure.



But that is my point you can't determine what gives pleasures to other humans. Pleasure is subjective. You are making the same false assumption that Ayn Rand made. Pleasure is not Objective.What if I over indulge in eating sweets because it gives me pleasure? Do you think that is healthy?

MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 11:12 am
@chai2,
I know that this is a different situation and that you are talking about me. However, the same concept I have presented in that example with Hitler applies here as well.
0 Replies
 
MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 11:16 am
@argome321,
Let's just forget all our moral values and terms for a moment and put them off to the side and just focus on the functioning of our brains since that is what really defines pleasure here. To say that there is a different form of pleasure we can have in our lives without our actual feelings of pleasure would be no different than saying that we can have a different version of hearing or sight through our thoughts alone without our actual hearing or sight.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 11:33 am
@argome321,
Quote:
Pain is neither good nor bad, It's job is to inform our bodies that something is wrong..

To include informing the brain that something is wrong with its contents.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 11:39 am
@MozartLink,
Quote:
If we had no pleasure, then it would be nothing more than us choosing our thoughts and actions and it wouldn't be any form of joy, inspiration, or motivation at all. Therefore, since this is the case, then we cannot have that version of good I just mentioned in our lives. We cannot experience it without our actual feelings of pleasure.

The problem is that somewhere along the way people took that idea and turned it onto a justification for sloth. Pleasure can come from winning competition, from a hard day doing useful work, and completing a long program (for instance getting a doctorate). Pleasure only partly comes from having our nerve stimulate in fun.
MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 11:44 am
@hawkeye10,
Of course, but it would only be the feelings of pleasure that still remain the only good experience in life. A person with anhedonia cannot live a good life at all without his/her feelings of pleasure. He/she might very well perceive things as being good in his/her life and might very well choose to make the best of his/her life anyway, but what good is any of that if there is no good experience from that?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 12:05 pm
@MozartLink,
So how do you account for the religious groups that purposefully dont drink, dont listen to music, dont dance, eat relatively bad food, and work from dawn to dusk? Are they miserable? I tend to think not, that they get something positive from the experience.

Same question about groups like the Amish, who work much harder than they need to because they dont want to use technology. Can we call what ever they get out of that pleasure?
MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 12:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
That would be false as long as they didn't have pleasure in doing so because for them to perceive that they have gotten something positive out of it without their feelings of pleasure, then that still doesn't change the experience of our thoughts and everything else in life without our feelings of pleasure. That being, our thoughts and such are just the "thinking" experience without our pleasure. You can have the thought of something being good in your life and you can have the thought that you have gotten something good out of your life even despite having an absence of pleasure, but that still doesn't change anything here. Based on my "Conscious Experience Argument" in that link, a good thought is no different than a bad thought or any other thought. They are different in the sense that they are obviously different thoughts. But they are all the same in the sense that they are all nothing more than just thoughts since the main conscious experience (function) defines them all as being such.

Our conscious experience is what defines our lives since how we live is through our conscious. Therefore, since the conscious experience of all our thoughts are just the "thinking" experience without our feelings of pleasure, then having a good thought in your life without your pleasure doesn't change anything. It doesn't change the fact that this said good thought in your life is nothing more than just a thought.
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 01:42 pm
@MozartLink,
Quote:
Let's just forget all our moral values and terms for a moment and put them off to the side and just focus on the functioning of our brains since that is what really defines pleasure here. To say that there is a different form of pleasure we can have in our lives without our actual feelings of pleasure would be no different than saying that we can have a different version of hearing or sight through our thoughts alone without our actual hearing or sight.


What you are demonstrating is a lack under understanding empirical data and interpreting that data.

Your confusing the external sense of what ever reality you perceive with ane internal interpretation. It makes it easier for us to see patterns e
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2015 01:44 pm
@MozartLink,
hen they are there.
Quote:
Let's just forget all our moral values and terms for a moment and put them off to the side and just focus on the functioning of our brains since that is what really defines pleasure here. To say that there is a different form of pleasure we can have in our lives without our actual feelings of pleasure would be no different than saying that we can have a different version of hearing or sight through our thoughts alone without our actual hearing or sight.


What you are demonstrating is a lack of under understanding empirical data and interpreting that data.

Your confusing the external sense of what ever reality you perceive with an internal interpretation. It makes life easier for us to see patterns even when they aren't there.
 

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