2
   

I am looking for a hedonistic debate

 
 
MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2015 07:33 am
@argome321,
This doesn't need any evidence. It is a basic scientific fact in of itself. To ask me for evidence of it would be no different than you asking me for evidence that our hearts pump to keep us alive. These are all things we already know. Just think for yourself here for once. How is it scientifically possible for a person with anhedonia (absence of pleasure) to somehow create new neurons and connections in such a way that his/her thoughts of pleasure become neurons and connections that experience pleasure and joy? This would be no different than me asking how is it scientifically possible for someone who is blind and deaf to create new neurons and connections in such a way that his/her thoughts of hearing and seeing actually become neurons and connections that allow him/her to see and hear.

Therefore, who the hell has ever taught you that we can have a form of pleasure, joy, and happiness in our lives without our feelings of pleasure? That an anhedonic person such as myself can have a form of pleasure in my life without my feelings of pleasure? These people who have taught you this are clearly speaking nonsense and are deluded.
argome321
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2015 08:12 am
@MozartLink,
Quote:
This doesn't need any evidence. It is a basic scientific fact in of itself. To ask me for evidence of it would be no different than you asking me for evidence that our hearts pump to keep us alive. These are all things we already know. Just think for yourself here for once. How is it scientifically possible for a person with anhedonia (absence of pleasure) to somehow create new neurons and connections in such a way that his/her thoughts of pleasure become neurons and connections that experience pleasure and joy? This would be no different than me asking how is it scientifically possible for someone who is blind and deaf to create new neurons and connections in such a way that his/her thoughts of hearing and seeing actually become neurons and connections that allow him/her to see and hear.

Therefore, who the hell has ever taught you that we can have a form of pleasure, joy, and happiness in our lives without our feelings of pleasure? That an anhedonic person such as myself can have a form of pleasure in my life without my feelings of pleasure? These people who have taught you this are clearly speaking nonsense and are deluded.[


Again restating your rhetoric proves nothing.
You haven't produced any empirical facts. Where is it?
You wanted respect and I have acted respectful but it seems here you aren't respectful in return.
As far as being an anhedonic you may be deluding yourself or lying to your self. I don't know.
Perhaps you wanted to debate to convince yourself of something?
So I'm finish here



good luck further on
MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2015 08:37 am
@argome321,
I'm sorry, I meant no disrespect towards you or anyone else. It's just that I don't know of any evidence I can find (other than what I already stated which appears as an actual scientific fact in of itself). However, if, let's pretend, that you knew how the brain works and was some highly intelligent neurologist, then I think you could then conclude whether what I just said was a scientific fact or was nonsense. Therefore, do not ask me for evidence. Instead, go ask an intelligent scientist or neurologist and get their word.
MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2015 08:21 pm
@MozartLink,
I realize that my explanations supporting hedonism were very long. They are so long that people don't even bother with them. Therefore, here is a summary I have finally come up with that also explains some more things as well:

Many people say that even without our feelings of pleasure, that there is a form of joy, happiness, and pleasure we can have in our lives. But this is false. Different functions of our brains are completely different experiences. If we had no feelings of pleasure, then the function (experience) of all our thoughts would all just be the "thinking" experience. We cannot experience any form of pleasure or happiness from our thoughts and other things alone without our actual feelings of pleasure. To say that we can would be no different than saying that a blind or deaf person can experience sight or hearing from his/her thoughts alone without his/her actual sight or hearing.

We could very well personally define what pleasure is in our lives even without our actual feelings of pleasure. We could say that our thoughts and other things in our lives are pleasure just as we could say that our thoughts and other things in life are a form of hearing or sight without our actual hearing or sight. But that still doesn't change what our thoughts are. That still doesn't change the experience of our thoughts in that they are all the "thinking" experience of our brains and can't be the experience of sight, hearing, pleasure, smell, etc. Same thing if we personally defined our own happiness and joy in life without our feelings of pleasure. That personal defined happiness and joy is not going to change the "thinking" experience of our thoughts. This "thinking" experience cannot be any other experience as I've said before and it can't be any experience of pleasure, happiness, peace, or joy. As I said before, it is all nothing more than the experience of a thought of pleasure, joy, and happiness and not the actual experience of any pleasure, joy, and happiness without our actual feelings of those things. Even if we somehow could experience pleasure or suffering from our thoughts and everything else in life, then that could only be providing we have our feelings of pleasure and suffering to do so.
Our moral values and other profound personal meanings in life also can never change the experience of our thoughts without our feelings of pleasure. Pleasure, joy, happiness, misery, suffering are all scientific and can only be defined as the areas of the brain that experience actual feelings of those said things.

Now other things in life can very well have good or bad value. If you hurt someone or an innocent living creature, then that could very well be said to be something bad. If you help others and living creatures, then that could very well be said to be something good. However, there is another version of good and bad. This other version of good would be the version of good that comes from us being motivated, inspired, looking foward in life, having a sense of joy, etc (aka, having a sense of worth in life and life being worth living to you). This version of good is our own personal lives and this version of good can only come through having our feelings of pleasure. Without your feelings of pleasure, then you could still live for other good things in life anyway. But there would be no motivation, drive, inspiration, joy, pleasure, peace, or happiness. It would be nothing more than you just simply choosing your thoughts and actions and all that would be experienced here would be just thoughts and such. Therefore, that version of personal good in our lives I just mentioned would not exist without our feelings of pleasure, joy, motivation, etc. Same thing applies for bad in that, without our feelings of suffering, then our personal lives can never be bad. Without feelings of pleasure and suffering, then our lives would be neutral (neither good or bad).

Our own conscious is what defines our own personal lives since it is our conscious that makes us alive in the first place. Therefore, if we had no feelings of pleasure, then us living for other good things in life separate from our own conscious would not define our personal lives as anything good. In other words, we could live for other good people and bring them joy and pleasure. But that wouldn't make our own personal lives anything good without our own feelings of joy and pleasure. Therefore, the version of good and bad of our own personal lives can only be defined through our own feelings of pleasure and suffering. Just because we derive pleasure and suffering from witnessing others experiencing pleasure and suffering does not mean that we are experiencing their feelings of pleasure or suffering. We are only in our own minds and we can only experience our own feelings of pleasure and suffering. Therefore, this is the reason why only our own feelings of pleasure and suffering can define our own lives as good (pleasure) or bad (suffering) and nothing else.

One might ask me where is my scientific evidence supporting my claims here. The answer to that would be that this doesn't need any evidence. It is a basic scientific fact in of itself. To ask me for evidence of it would be no different than you asking me for evidence that our hearts pump to keep us alive. These are all things we already know. Just think for yourself here for once. How is it scientifically possible for a person with anhedonia (absence of pleasure) to somehow create new neurons and connections in such a way that his/her thoughts of pleasure become neurons and connections that experience pleasure and joy? This would be no different than me asking how is it scientifically possible for someone who is blind and deaf to create new neurons and connections in such a way that his/her thoughts of hearing and seeing actually become neurons and connections that allow him/her to see and hear.
Therefore, who the hell has ever taught you that we can have a form of pleasure, joy, and happiness in our lives without our feelings of pleasure? That an anhedonic person such as myself can have a form of pleasure in my life without my feelings of pleasure? These people who have taught you this are clearly speaking nonsense and are deluded.

Now I don't know of any evidence I can find (other than what I already stated which appears as an actual scientific fact in of itself). However, if, let's pretend, that you knew how the brain works and was some highly intelligent neurologist, then I think you could then conclude whether what I just said was a scientific fact or was nonsense. Therefore, do not ask me for evidence. Instead, go ask an intelligent scientist or neurologist and get their word.

But even if it were somehow proven to me that our personal lives can be good and that we can have a genuine form of pleasure and drive in our lives without our actual feelings of pleasure, my feelings of pleasure to me personally are what I need in my life and define my personal life as good and that does not make me selfish or a narcissist for having that value.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 04:37 am
@MozartLink,
Nearly as I can see…we are all narcissistic and selfish…even the most altruistic of us.

Those who are described as altruistic simply derive their pleasure from things that are different from those who derive their pleasure from things that cause others to consider them narcissistic.

As far as I can tell…we all live our lives in ways that meet our needs and desires…EVERY LAST ONE OF US.

So once again…I do not understand your point

How about, instead of a long essay that seems to ramble…you present ONE (the most salient) thought in as comprehensive a way as possible…just a few sentences or sort paragraphs.

After we get that...we can move on.

MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 04:46 am
@Frank Apisa,
My long essay is just a refutation to those types of people who say that my own personal life can still be good without my feelings of pleasure and that feelings of pleasure are not the only good experience in life.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 04:50 am
@MozartLink,
MozartLink wrote:

My long essay is just a refutation to those types of people who say that my own personal life can still be good without my feelings of pleasure and that feelings of pleasure are not the only good experience in life.


Ahhhh...then I agree. THEY are absurd.

It almost certain we ALL live our lives in order to satisfy our needs and wants...so in effect, we are ALL living our lives only to experience pleasure.
MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 05:01 am
@Frank Apisa,
Thank you. Therefore, here is another thing I would like to say:

As for the idea of me solely living for others if I could never recover my pleasure, we all have personal good lives of our own we need to attend to and need to have. For example, I do things for my own self and my own life such as playing videogames which doesn't involve helping others. But the only thing that could make those sort of things I do for myself (my hobbies) anything good in my personal life is if I can derive feelings of pleasure from them. Therefore, it is like taking away all my personal hobbies and my own personal life and then telling me to just accept that, to just forget my personal life, and to instead just live for others and for other things instead. Therefore, do you not see why that would obviously make me psychotic? It would make any innocent and caring person psychotic. Feelings of pleasure are the only reward message to the brain and are the only things that tell us that our lives are good and worth living. Therefore, my feelings of pleasure are the only things that make my life and hobbies worth doing and pursuing. Don't believe me when I say that feelings of pleasure are the only "good" messages to the brain and are the only things that genuinely encourage us in life and encourage our survival? Then go ask an intelligent scientist or an evolutionary biologist. Sure, we could tell ourselves that our lives are good and worth living without our feelings of pleasure. But that is nothing more than just some thought. It is not that "good" message (feelings of pleasure). We could recognize certain situations as being good or bad and we could very well choose to help others and such without our feelings of pleasure. But the fact still remains that they are nothing more than just thoughts. They are not that "good" message as I said before. They are just simply thoughts of good and bad and not the actual messages of good and bad. The message of good obviously being feelings of pleasure while the message of bad obviously being feelings of suffering.

When we do something good or bad, then that gives us actual feelings of pleasure and suffering. Why is that? It's not just because they are just feelings that "just happen." They are messages to the brain that tell us that what we are doing is good or bad since that is how we evolved. Therefore, to not have any feelings of pleasure due to depression or anhedonia, then there is no message telling you that your life is good and worth living and you would only be fooling yourself by thinking that your life is good and worth living through your thoughts and such alone without your feelings of pleasure. Same thing applies for feelings of suffering in that you would not be having any message telling you that what you are doing in life is bad or that your life is bad.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 05:27 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
It almost certain we ALL live our lives in order to satisfy our needs and wants...so in effect, we are ALL living our lives only to experience pleasure.


Good morning Frank

Do you think that all actions to avoid suffering leads directly to pleasure?
I think we all would prefer pleasure to suffering... but sometimes we are avoiding suffering just to survive minimally...isn't that possible?

I'm just thinking that pleasure being the only truly good thing in life exclusively diminishes life...and not always healthy. And if it isn't always healthy how can it truly be the only good thing in life?

Second, can't the anticipation of a forth coming event to experience also give you pleasure?

I think life is a little more complicated then to reduce the goal of life to just a hedonistic philosophy. I could be wrong, but I think it just isn't that simple.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 05:34 am
@argome321,


Good morning, Argome.

I have a colonoscopy scheduled for this morning...and there was lots of "suffering" in the prep yesterday.

Sometimes we avoid suffering...sometimes we seek it out (as I did yesterday) for various reasons.

But my point is that it seems to me that ALL of what we do...is to meet a need or desire that satisfies us...and I see "satisfaction" as the ultimate pleasure.

I think we are all hedonists...but that the hedonism in some of us requires that we consider the "pleasures" of others to be excessive.

I guess an argument can be made that some pleasures extend life...and some shorten (or diminish) it.

For me...I am interested more in meeting my needs and desires...than I am in prolonging life. I think that others are more interested in prolonging life.

We both are meeting our needs and desires.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 05:35 am
@MozartLink,
Thanks for the reply...but too many notes.

Pick out the next most important thing...and put it into fewer words.
MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 05:39 am
@Frank Apisa,
I will go ahead then. Feelings of pleasure and suffering are the only good and bad messages to the brain. Our thoughts of good and bad without our feelings of pleasure or suffering are nothing more than just thoughts and are not the actual messages of good and bad since we evolved to only have our feelings of pleasure and suffering tell us that what we do is good or bad and that our lives are good or bad.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 05:43 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I have a colonoscopy scheduled for this morning...and there was lots of "suffering" in the prep yesterday.


I had one two years ago. I feel for you.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 05:51 am
@MozartLink,
MozartLink wrote:

I will go ahead then. Feelings of pleasure and suffering are the only good and bad messages to the brain.


Not necessarily. Way too dogmatic.

I know people who are not feeling pleasure...UNLESS they are feeling suffering.

The "good and bad" notions are inappropriate here.

Quote:

Our thoughts of good and bad without our feelings of pleasure or suffering are nothing more than just thoughts and are not the actual messages of good and bad since we evolved to only have our feelings of pleasure and suffering tell us that what we do is good or bad and that our lives are good or bad.


I have no idea of what you are trying to communicate here.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 05:53 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:

Quote:
I have a colonoscopy scheduled for this morning...and there was lots of "suffering" in the prep yesterday.


I had one two years ago. I feel for you.


Appropriate to this thread...

...there are people who seek and find pleasure in the probing I am so going to resent today!
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 05:54 am
@MozartLink,
Quote:
I will go ahead then. Feelings of pleasure and suffering are the only good and bad messages to the brain. Our thoughts of good and bad without our feelings of pleasure or suffering are nothing more than just thoughts and are not the actual messages of good and bad since we evolved to only have our feelings of pleasure and suffering tell us that what we do is good or bad and that our lives are good or bad.


See here is where the problem the lies. Good and bad are concepts, thoughts that are abstract and these thoughts must be interpreted and that is a cognitive exercise and in and of itself a thought process.

The conclusion you draw is subjective and varies from person to person.

your belief (guess) that the " Feelings of pleasure and suffering are the only good and bad messages to the brain. Our thoughts of good and bad without our feelings of pleasure or suffering are nothing more than just thoughts and are not the actual messages of good and bad since we evolved to only have our feelings of pleasure and suffering tell us that what we do is good or bad and that our lives are good or bad" is false because the brain doesn't make any judgement. It makes no judgement. It is the state of mind that does such because the mind is a product of brain function.
MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 05:58 am
@argome321,
There is a feeling version of good and bad and there is the thought version of good and bad. The thought version of good and bad without our feelings of pleasure and suffering are fake. They are not the true good and bad. Only our feelings of pleasure and suffering give us the good and bad message.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 06:07 am
@MozartLink,
Quote:
There is a feeling version of good and bad and there is the thought version of good and bad. The thought version of good and bad without our feelings of pleasure and suffering are fake. They are not the true good and bad. Only our feelings of pleasure and suffering give us the good and bad message.


How do you know they are fake? What proof do you have for your assertion?
How does one tell apart the thought version from the other version as you describe? After all isn't all in the mind?
Do you have examples?
MozartLink
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 06:41 am
@argome321,
As I said before, I do not have any links to evidence and I am not disrespecting you or anyone else as I said earlier. I can only base my very likely assertions on what we already know about science and such. So first off, I will ask you why did we evolve feelings of pleasure and suffering? Would it be because they are things that tell us that things are good or bad? If so, then it's quite obvious that only our feelings give us the good and bad message since if we were to perceive something as being good or bad in our lives, then that perception triggers a signal in our brains that either gives us feelings of pleasure or suffering. Why would this process in the brain even happen if all that is needed to perceive something as being good or bad is through our thoughts and other things alone?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 08:40 am
@MozartLink,
Quote:

The fact is that just going up and disrespecting someone you don't know can get you blown away if you disrespect the wrong person.


It seems you have made a very strong argument against hedonism right there. It can be fatal. I rest my case.
0 Replies
 
 

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