On 9/11, a Telling Seven-Minute Silence; Bush image focus

Craven de Kere wrote:

Given that all of the criticism has centered on how it makes him "look" as a leader I think appearances are pretty much the only issue at stake.

I believe that much more than 'appearance' is at stake for Bush, in the final assessment just over four months from now.

To say that it is only my opinion that his actions that day (and these must include his flights to Louisiana, and then Nebraska, before returning in the evening to Washington) make him look weak, ineffectual, totally managed by others, out of touch, and incompetent is also not an effective rebuttal. No one could argue (without being laughed at, that is) that Bush's actions that morning were bold and decisive, which is how his handlers continuously attempt to portray him, for example.

And the appearance of weakness, ineffectuality, and incompetence is far worse for him than just a PR blunder (which is of course what some say about the 'marketing' of the Iraqi war, but that doesn't make that rationale an effective one, either).

Craven wrote:

Is there something other than appearance that would be changed by Bush having excused himself?

Well, we could speculate, but that wouldn't be worthwhile, as I have answered.

If it is accurate that more is at stake than just appearances, then it is perhaps accurate to assume that more than just appearances would be different, but that's a little too tenuous for me. So, for sake of our discussion I am happy to leave it at 'appearances are often more than meets the eye.'

Does Bush appear a poor leader as a result of his actions that day?

Is Bush a weak leader as a result of his actions that day?

This is what we're arguing.

Craven wrote:

Are you asserting that he made a mistake insofar as national security is concerned? This would be the first time I've seen someone make this case and quite frankly I have no idea what it would be comprised of. IMO it made no differenece to national security but I'd like to hear theories about how it would have.

The record is lengthy -- and contentious -- relative to actions of thousands of people responsible for the nation's security going back months and years prior to -- as well as after -- 9/11/01.

You seem to be asking me to correlate the inaction of the President on that morning with an event that could have changed the course of the other cataclysmic events.

Too bad. I can't do that, try as I might. :wink:

Are there actions that Bush has taken since that day that impact our safety? Yes, absolutely. Cutting funding to first-responders is but one example.

So within the narrow script of your question it would be hard -- no, impossible -- to pin any blame on Bush. Blame before, certainly; shared with his predecessor and all of those who worked for both men, right down to the FBI managers in field offices who blew off their agents' reports of Arab men taking flight instruction. Blame after; most assuredly. To assert "we haven't had a terrorist attack since 9/11" seems as logical as saying "we haven't had a stock market crash since 1929, so we must be doing OK".

Craven wrote:

PDiddie, you assert that he sat "knowing that something horrible was in the middle of happening, that thousands of people were probably dead".

Upon what do you base this?

You haven't clicked on my link, have you?

Quote:

(Between 8:55-9:00 a.m.)

Just after Bush arrives at Booker Elementary School and is briefly told of the WTC crash, he is whisked into a holding room and updated on the situation via telephone by National Security Advisor Rice. [Christian Science Monitor, 9/17/01, Time, 9/12/01] Rice later claims, "He said, what a terrible, it sounds like a terrible accident. Keep me informed." [ABC News, 9/11/02] School principal Gwen Tose-Rigell is then summoned to a room to talk with the President: "He said a commercial plane has hit the World Trade Center, and we're going to go ahead and go on, we're going on to do the reading thing anyway." [AP, 8/19/02 (D)] One local reporter notes that at this point, "He could and arguably should have left Emma E. Booker Elementary School immediately, gotten onto Air Force One and left Sarasota without a moment's delay." [Sarasota Herald-Tribune, 9/12/01 (B)]

At this point the only suspicion anyone could reasonably have is that something horrible has occurred, and that many people must have been killed.

"Soooooo, let's go read the goat book anyway..."

Craven wrote:

Are you asserting that Bush immediately knew the scope of the day's events?

On the contrary, I assert others such as Dick Cheney and Richard Clarke in the WH Situation Room understood the gravity of the moment, but they would have had to explain it to Bush some time later. Maybe an hour or more later. Certainly his demeanor did not indicate he absorbed the seriousness of the matter even as only a 'terrible accident'.

Craven wrote:

On January 5, 2002, Charles Bishop crashed a plane into a building. This was after 9/11 but as you well know the scope of the event was very different.

It was different for reasons beyond a plane jitting a building but do you assert that based merely on the combination of plane/building the president should have immediately known the scope of the event?

I'll leave the nit-picking to you, Chief.

Craven wrote:

Frankly I don't even think this was a faux pas.

I don't understand this. I thought a faux pas was all you thought it was.

[quote="Craven""]But one interesting question is the following:

Do you think that in the subsequent days Bush demonstrated admirable leadership?

Many Americans do, probably a comfortable majority.

If it helps any, I think they are just as wrong.[/quote]

You and I are together there in the minority of public opinion. Cool

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PDiddie wrote:

So withing the narrow script of your question it would be hard -- no, impossible -- to pin any blame on Bush. Blame before, certainly; shared with his predecessor and all of those who worked for both men, right down to the FBI managers in field offices who blew off their agents' reports of Arab men taking flight instruction. Blame after; most assuredly. To assert "we haven't had a terrorist attack since 9/11" seems as logical as saying "we haven't had a stock market crash since 1929, so we must be doing OK".

This is more along the lines of something I can appreciate. I'm not a big fan of character arguments with politicians since so much of it is image and abstract nebulous feelings people take from the bytes they see, hear and read.

But pointing to specific policies and decisions is something I put a lot of weight on with political arguments.

Quote:

Craven wrote:
Frankly I don't even think this was a faux pas.

I don't understand this. I thought a faux pas was all you thought it was.

I don't think it was a faux pas. I think the percentage of people who think it ranged from a faux pas to even a sign of already having known (as part of a conspiracy) is too low to consider it a faux pas.

To explain:

Some people think it was a faux pas (or worse).

I do not think it was.

I do not think enough people think it was to justify calling it a faux pas beyond individual interpretation.

But the crux of my problem with highlighting things like this about Bush is that I think it only plays well to the choir and I think it undermines more substantial complaints (say, like the first response funding).

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If BBB had been George Bush
You asked what we would do if we had been in Bush's shoes during that seven minutes.

Well, the first thing I would have done was to call for the "football" the briefcase holding the mechanism for ordering missile attacks. I would have wanted it nearby because we didn't know what kind of attack we were experiencing.

The second thing I would have done would have been to consult with the Chief of the Joint Chief of Staff, the FAA, or anyone that could advise me about issuing an order to shoot down hi-jacked airliners; an order that can only come from the President.

The third thing would be to order an immediate evacuation of the Whitehouse and possibly the Capitol. I may not have immediately thought of evacuating the Pentagon. Beside, it needed to be staffed to handle any military responses required.

I would have immediately ordered everyone back to Airforce One to get it in the air and out of possible harms way and, most importantly, to utilize it's communication systems. BTW, I would not have waited for the press and any other laggers to get the plane in the air.

I would not have continued my session with the children and I certainly would not have gone to another school room to write and tape a message to the country. That could have been done from the safety of Airforce One.

My main reason for faulting Bush's actions (or lack of them) is because his first thoughts seem to be about the image he would project. But then, his entire political career seems driven by the image thing, so his reactions could be predicted.

BBB

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Quote:

My main reason for faulting Bush's actions (or lack of them) is because his first thoughts seem to be about the image he would project. But then, his entire political career seems driven by the image thing, so his reactions could be predicted.

I couldn't have said it better if I tried for an hour, so I will just leave it as; I agree.

When the first tower was hit, he can be excused for going on to read to the kids. When I first heard about it, (I wasn't watching tv at the time, my mom called and told me about it) I just thought it was a horrible crash too. (that was a horrible joke to say in response upon hearing that a plan had just hit one of the towers) But when I saw the second trade center hit, I knew that we had to be under attack because the odds of that being an accident were just too great. When the president heard about the second tower, he should have gotten up (quietly) to consult with his people to find out what was going on. Period.

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Following this discussion with interest ...

It looks like BBB has just finally given the answer Craven has been angling for - what should he have done in those 7 minutes? What difference might it have made, regarding both the actual and potential dangers of the moment?

So now I'm interested in what Cravens reply will be ...

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Re: If BBB had been George Bush

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

You asked what we would do if we had been in Bush's shoes during that seven minutes.

Well, the first thing I would have done was to call for the "football" the briefcase holding the mechanism for ordering missile attacks. I would have wanted it nearby because we didn't know what kind of attack we were experiencing.

The second thing I would have done would have been to consult with the Chief of the Joint Chief of Staff, the FAA, or anyone that could advise me about issuing an order to shoot down hi-jacked airliners; an order that can only come from the President.

The third thing would be to order an immediate evacuation of the Whitehouse and possibly the Capitol. I may not have immediately thought of evacuating the Pentagon. Beside, it needed to be staffed to handle any military responses required.

I would have immediately ordered everyone back to Airforce One to get it in the air and out of possible harms way and, most importantly, to utilize it's communication systems. BTW, I would not have waited for the press and any other laggers to get the plane in the air.BBB

So tell me BBB...how does it feel to be more intelligent, have a clearer presence of mind and be decisive in your actions and decision making than the President of the United States, GW Bush?

I agree with revel BBB...your last paragraph summed the Bush presidency up beautifully. Thank you.

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Re: If BBB had been George Bush

doglover wrote:

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
You asked what we would do if we had been in Bush's shoes during that seven minutes.

Well, the first thing I would have done was to call for the "football" the briefcase holding the mechanism for ordering missile attacks. I would have wanted it nearby because we didn't know what kind of attack we were experiencing.

The second thing I would have done would have been to consult with the Chief of the Joint Chief of Staff, the FAA, or anyone that could advise me about issuing an order to shoot down hi-jacked airliners; an order that can only come from the President.

The third thing would be to order an immediate evacuation of the Whitehouse and possibly the Capitol. I may not have immediately thought of evacuating the Pentagon. Beside, it needed to be staffed to handle any military responses required.

I would have immediately ordered everyone back to Airforce One to get it in the air and out of possible harms way and, most importantly, to utilize it's communication systems. BTW, I would not have waited for the press and any other laggers to get the plane in the air.BBB

So tell me BBB...how does it feel to be more intelligent, have a clearer presence of mind and be decisive in your actions and decision making than the President of the United States, GW Bush?

I agree with revel BBB...your last paragraph summed the Bush presidency up beautifully. Thank you.

So easy to be brilliant in hindsight, isn't it? :wink:

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I'm sure Bush as a leader is suffering from a lot of hindsight. It doesn't excuse mistakes that he won't admit to.

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Re: If BBB had been George Bush
"Brand X" wrote: "So easy to be brilliant in hindsight, isn't it? :wink"

Perhaps hindsight would work for you but please don't apply your own thought processes to me. I tend to think during those moments of sequential steps possibility, like lined-up dominoes falling down, to reach the goal I've identified. I've learned that trait is not a common one in most populations. Most people can think only of one step at a time, and its frustrating to have to wait for them to catch up and I had to learn to have patience which is hard for me. I know this sounds arrogant, but that's how my mind works.

As a matter of fact, I have a life-long reputation for clear thinking and keeping my head in emergencies and have demonstrated this ability on several dire occasions.

I wrote what my actions would have been at the moment of the 9/11 emergency. My reaction was not all that different from Richard Clarke's actions in Washington as he began issuing orders to save lives. Even Dick Cheney took responsibility for ordering hijacked planes shot down. And some very smart person at the FAA immediately ordered every plane out of the sky to isolate any remaining hijacked planes.

These people were trained regarding what to do in an emergency. I'm not trained, but I rely on my life experiences, natural instincts and logic to guide my actions in an emergency. I do whatever is necessary.

I should also tell you that I'm strong and decisive during the emergency, but once the danger is over, I think about what happened and I break down shaking in tears---just like an emotional stupid woman---and maybe even men.

BBB

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Re: If BBB had been George Bush

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

I should also tell you that I'm strong and decisive during the emergency, but once the danger is over, I think about what happened and I break down shaking in tears---just like an emotional stupid woman---and maybe even men.

BBB

I think that is a natural, human reaction BBB. A bit of post-traumatic stress I would imagine. Breaking down would not make you an emotional stupid woman...it would make you a human being with feelings.

The point is, when you are the Commander In Chief, you MUST be decisive and strong during an emergency. Thats what makes me so mad about Bush...he KNOWS he isn't capable of doing the job of President, yet he is seeking a second term. A man with decency and honor...one who truly loved his country, would be a true patriot and step aside and let someone else do the job who was capable.

Brand X...it's not about hindsight...it's about having forethought...planning ahead, assessing a situation and taking action...being a leader. All the qualities Bush lacks.

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link

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to hell with the first 7 minutes, I'd like to know what he did for the next 24 hrs.

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Quote:

More interesting is the moment where Bush is shown frozen on his chair at the infant school in Florida, looking stunned and useless for seven whole minutes after the news of the second plane on 9/11. Many are those who say that he should have leaped from his stool, adopted a Russell Crowe stance, and gone to work. I could even wish that myself. But if he had done any such thing then (as he did with his "Let's roll" and "dead or alive" remarks a month later), half the Michael Moore community would now be calling him a man who went to war on a hectic, crazed impulse.

Ehm, is it just me or is that a really illogical comparison?

I mean, there's a coupla people here saying he should have gotten up and, well, rattle off BBB's list here - in short, taken some very concrete, practical measures to inform himself and safeguard the country at a moment of attack. But, the writer here suggests, if he had done the macho "let's roll/dead or alive" TV rhetorics thing, we would have protested too! Well, yeah - duh. How is one even remotely a reflection of the other?

Nobody's saying he should have jumped up and gone to war or erupted into fierce macho rhetorics for on TV - and yes, if he had done that, he would have rightly come under criticism too. But just getting up and doing what a President does at a moment of crisis, inform himself, order safety measures for himself, for air space, might have instilled a little more confidence in his ability to use his authority and use it wisely?

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Re: If BBB had been George Bush

nimh wrote:

It looks like BBB has just finally given the answer Craven has been angling for - what should he have done in those 7 minutes? What difference might it have made, regarding both the actual and potential dangers of the moment?

So now I'm interested in what Cravens reply will be ...

Arg, I was done. Now you give me homework. Evil or Very Mad

But I agree, BBB's post was an excellent one and her decisions are ones I agree with with only one possible exception.

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

You asked what we would do if we had been in Bush's shoes during that seven minutes.

Well, the first thing I would have done was to call for the "football" the briefcase holding the mechanism for ordering missile attacks. I would have wanted it nearby because we didn't know what kind of attack we were experiencing.

The nuclear football briefcase to order nuclear strikes?

Quote:

The second thing I would have done would have been to consult with the Chief of the Joint Chief of Staff, the FAA, or anyone that could advise me about issuing an order to shoot down hi-jacked airliners; an order that can only come from the President.

If true (the part I emphasize) it sounds like something that could make an event-changing difference.

It is not true. The president is merely the first person who can make that order but because we can't always depend on the president in every minute of every day for such an order there is a chain of command that the order can come from.

I still think this is a really good point and I agree wholeheartedly with your "I would have done" scenario on this but I do wish to point out that it is not true that only the president can issue this order.

The protocol for this order goes from the President to the secretary of defense. Vice President Cheney issued this order ("to engage the inbound plane") circumventing the protocol and this was an issue the 9/11 commission investigated.

LA Times - This article covers nearly all the items I touched on including quotes of the order that was issued to take down the planes.

Quote:

The third thing would be to order an immediate evacuation of the Whitehouse and possibly the Capitol. I may not have immediately thought of evacuating the Pentagon. Beside, it needed to be staffed to handle any military responses required.

I agree with doing this. It ultimately would not have made a difference (except for the Pentagon part, but I agree with your hestitation there too) but would definitely be a good idea.

Others certainly thought so as well because this was, at some point, done. Thankfully there was no minute-difference to become an issue.

Quote:

I would have immediately ordered everyone back to Airforce One to get it in the air and out of possible harms way and, most importantly, to utilize it's communication systems. BTW, I would not have waited for the press and any other laggers to get the plane in the air.

Agreed.

Quote:

I would not have continued my session with the children and I certainly would not have gone to another school room to write and tape a message to the country. That could have been done from the safety of Airforce One.

Agreed.

With nearly all of your decisions I agree (maybe with the exception of the football) the ones that in hindsight would not have made a difference would be good decisions at the time, when foresight was not clear enough to know that.

Quote:

My main reason for faulting Bush's actions (or lack of them) is because his first thoughts seem to be about the image he would project. But then, his entire political career seems driven by the image thing, so his reactions could be predicted.

Ironically, the criticisms are something that could tarnish the image'. In my opinion no matter what he had done in those 7 minutes it's possible to describe it as having a concern for image.

Doing the right things do wonders for an image, and because it's hard to quantify these personality things and because it's easy to characterize mindset I personally can't offer many guesses in this regard.

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It looks like what is in Moore's film has sparked controversy and conjecture in searching for answers. Wonder if that's what was on his mind?

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The football is always travelling with the President, and if he had taken a step toward it, you'd all be saying what a crazed lunatic he was-- as was said above.

And, IMO, you are all off the mark, saying Bush wanted to be perceived as calm for PR sake. The world watches the Pres with great detail (as you all prove here, assailing his calm response.)

It would make us and the world take note that he'd left the classroom. It would have sent Americans into a worse panic, IMO. To continue made it seem things were well in hand, and nothing had happened that we weren't handling without dramatics.

This is why Al Haig's nutty statement after Reagan's shooting was so derided. We don't need the Pres, or high ranking official to put on such a show. Even if he left calmly, it would have resulted in high panic--and would have been much more criticised. Everyone would be buzzing that he'd walked out--and what does this mean?

Bush obviously trusted the chain of command, the Secret Service, and Transportation Secty. They each had very defined tasks in such a case--and they handled their positions quite well. Bush had no need to micromanage, like a hothead would. You put a cabinet, and people in place, and let them do their jobs, rather than hotdogging.

He handled it perfectly.IMO.

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President Bush's Movements and Actions on 9/11
I hate to disappoint Sofia and others who think Bush's actions were appropriate. This article is too long to post, but it covers the time lines, witness statements, etc. Its the best blow by blow account I've read.
---BBB

An Interesting Day:
President Bush's Movements and Actions on 9/11
By Allan Wood and Paul Thompson
May 9, 2003
Center for Cooperative Research

"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essayaninterestingday.html

3 excerpts:

When was Bush first notified of the attack:

Two accounts explicitly state Bush was told while in the motorcade. "The President was on Highway 301, just north of Main Street ... [when] he received the news that a plane had crashed in New York City." [Sarasota Magazine, 11/01] (See adjacent map for the location where he is told.) Another account states, "Bush was driving to the school in a motorcade when the phone rang. An airline accident appeared to have happened. He pressed on with his visit." [Observer, 9/16/01]

The first media reports of Flight 11's crash into the World Trade Center began around 8:48, two minutes after the crash happened. [New York Times, 9/15/01] CNN broke into its regular programming at that time [CNN, 9/11/01], though other networks, such as ABC, took a few more minutes to begin reporting. [ABC, 9/14/02] So within minutes, millions were aware of the story, yet Bush supposedly remained unaware for about another ten minutes.......

The Photo-Op Goes On

After Card told Bush about the second plane and quickly left, the classroom was silent for about 30 seconds or so. [Tampa Tribune, 9/1/02] The children were about to take turns reading from a story called The Pet Goat. [AFP, 9/7/02] Bush picked up the book and began to read with the children. [Tampa Tribune, 9/1/02] In unison, the children read out loud, "The - Pet - Goat. A - girl - got - a - pet - goat. But - the - goat - did - some - things - that - made - the - girl's - dad - mad." Bush mostly listened, but occasionally asked the children a few questions to encourage them. [Washington Times, 10/7/02] At one point he said, "Really good readers, whew! ... These must be sixth-graders!" [Time, 9/12/01]

Who was really in control? Certainly not Bush. In the back of the room, Press Secretary Ari Fleischer caught Bush's eye and held up a pad of paper for him to see, with "DON'T SAY ANYTHING YET" written on it in big block letters. [Washington Times, 10/7/02] Some person or people had overruled the security who wanted Bush evacuated immediately, even as Vice President Cheney was taken from his White House office to a safe location. Bush's security overruled Bush on security matters later in the day on Air Force One, but who overruled them that morning?......

Bush Lingers On

Once he was out of the classroom, did Bush immediately leave Booker? No. He stayed in the adjacent room with his staff, calling Vice President Cheney and National Security Advisor Rice, and preparing a speech. [Telegraph, 12/16/01, St. Petersburg Times 9/8/02] Incredibly, even as uncertain information began to surface, suggesting that more planes had been hijacked (eventually 11 planes would be suspected) [CBS, 9/11/02], Bush was allowed to make his remarks at 9:30 - exactly the time and place stated on his advance schedule. [Federal News Service, 9/10/01, see the transcript of his speech here] Why hasn't Bush's security staff been criticized for their completely inexplicable decision to stay at the school? And why didn't Bush's concern for the children extend to not making them and the rest of the 200 or so people at the school terrorist targets?

At 9:16, NORAD was notified that Flight 93 had been hijacked, and at 9:24 it was notified that Flight 77 had also been hijacked and was heading toward Washington (though, as discussed above, the hijacking was known long before this). [NORAD, 9/18/01] No media report has suggested that the possible shooting down of hijacked airplanes was discussed at this time, however. It appears the discussion was not broached until after 9:55. [Washington Post, 1/27/02, CBS, 9/11/02] At about 9:26, it was either FAA head Jane Garvey or FAA administrator Ben Sliney (and not Bush) who decided to halt all airplane takeoffs in the US. [Time, 9/14/01, USA Today, 8/13/02] Additionally, no evidence has appeared suggesting Bush had a role in ordering any fighters into the skies.......

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Quote:

And why didn't Bush's concern for the children extend to not making them and the rest of the 200 or so people at the school terrorist targets?

gosh, that thought never occured to me. I bet that thought never occured to a lot of people. But it should have occured to those in charge of such things and they should have informed Bush if he didn't think of that possiblity himself.

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Re: If BBB had been George Bush

Craven de Kere wrote:

Arg, I was done. Now you give me homework.

LOL sorry 'bout that ... Razz

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Sofia wrote:

It would make us and the world take note that he'd left the classroom. It would have sent Americans into a worse panic, IMO.

Considering we were all watching a huge passenger plane crash into the World Trade Center towers right then, with another one to follow soon, I doubt whether the President calmly leaving a classroom really would have made much of a difference, panic-wise.

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On 9/11, a Telling Seven-Minute Silence; Bush image focus

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