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What good does religion offer the world today?

NSFW Forums: Religion, Social Media, Idle Discourse, Anti-Religious Memes
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Leadfoot
 
  0  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 06:04 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
By the way, Leadfoot...

...the story of Adam and Eve...and the garden...and "the fall"...

...should be in a book titled, "Mother Goose Stories.

Really!
More like Grimms Fairy Tales. But I get your point. Genesis is metaphorical in the extream.

I don't believe because of the book or ID, neither one would be enough to convince me. It's only individual interaction with the God that first convinced me. I'm not crazy enough to think that can be conveyed to others on paper or computer screen. ID and the book were unexpected surprises. I didn't expect either to corroborate my experience, but they did.

Others have said they sincerely sought God themselves but didn't find him but I suspect that it was actually disapointing events in their life or like your & Glennn's outrage at the stories that were not understood.

I see no evidence of the rape commanded by God that incensed Glennn and the only way I can explain things like Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son is to say that God never asked anything of us that he was not willing to do himself.

The overall story cannot be understood without grasping the goal of the creator. He wants the company of beings fit to be just that. If realizing that goal means killing the majority of us or asking the rest to pass the test of putting nothing ahead of our creator and loving our fellow man, he will do that. I wish there was a way to sugar coat that reality but I can't find it.

None of that means he doesn't dearly love us.
Glennn
 
  2  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 07:37 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Others have said they sincerely sought God themselves but didn't find him but I suspect that it was actually disapointing events in their life or like your & Glennn's outrage at the stories that were not understood.

What you’re doing now is characterizing the argument and the ones presenting that argument instead of answering the argument. It’s the last refuge of the losing side. Now, I don’t generally speak for others, but neither Frank nor I are outraged by the atrociousness of the stories that expose the atrocious character of the god that you believe loves you. I, for one, am disappointed that otherwise intelligent adults will stand behind pulpits and behind computer keyboards for the purpose of presenting an alleged being of love in a way that scares children. Yeah, that’s outrageous!
Quote:
I see no evidence of the rape commanded by God that incensed Glennn and the only way I can explain things like Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son is to say that God never asked anything of us that he was not willing to do himself.

Numbers 31:17: Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Gee, I wonder how they figured out if a female had laid with a man.

Next verse: But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

You think I’m incensed by the murder and rape? Well, who wouldn’t be? But that’s what murderers and rapists do; they have psychological problems. But what’s your excuse for loving the god that ordered the murder and rape of human beings, and for believing that such a being loves you? Up until this moment, you’ve been unaware of the biblical account of this murder and rape. And to add insult to injury, you’ve even gone so far as to claim that the god would never ask anything of us that it would not do itself. So, the god has murdered and raped? You appear to be the only one here who doesn't understand your position.
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 10:02 am
@Glennn,
Quote:
What you’re doing now is characterizing the argument and the ones presenting that argument instead of answering the argument. It’s the last refuge of the losing side. Now, I don’t generally speak for others, but neither Frank nor I are outraged by the atrociousness of the stories

Oh come on. Do you read your own posts? Do you read Franks? No outrage???

BTW, your reference does not say God said to rape the women. I would assume that meant to make them wives in the future.

I get it, you regard the stories as outrageous. But why deny it in the very same post that you express your outrage.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 10:39 am
@Leadfoot,
Actually, Glenn is much closer to the truth than you, Leadfoot.

I am not outraged by the god. Not at all.

To me, it would be like being outraged at Polyphemus...and his fellow Cyclopes, because of their behavior.

It would make no sense.

If I am outraged at all (I really am not) it is by modern humans stooping to the level of ancient, superstitious, relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, extremely frightened humans...

...and buying into their silly myths.

But as I said...I am not outraged...and I doubt Glenn is either.
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 11:20 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I am not outraged by the god. Not at all.
I SAID "outraged by the stories". not outraged by the God.

I call BS on you both.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  3  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 11:47 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Oh come on. Do you read your own posts? Do you read Franks? No outrage???

BTW, your reference does not say God said to rape the women. I would assume that meant to make them wives in the future.

I get it, you regard the stories as outrageous. But why deny it in the very same post that you express your outrage.

By keeping the females alive for themselves, do you imagine that the girls were willing wives. Do you think they were turned on by, and endeared to, the men whom they had just witnessed slaughtering their families and friends? You’re a living testament to the blinding power of indoctrination.

You say you can’t find reference to the god commanding the rape of young girls. Are you saying that Moses went against the will of the god when he gave his people permission to rape them? Further, you failed to mention the reference to the god telling Moses to murder everyone else. The reason you chose to avoid that issue is no mystery. You're holding to the historical accuracy of the biblical account. So long as you do, you will be held accountable for being an advocate of the crimes and the means with which they were accomplished.

I made it abundantly clear that my outrage is not directed toward the people whose psychological problems allowed them to commit genocide and rape of young girls in the name of the god. My outrage is directed toward those--like yourself--who would defend the actions of the murderers and rapists.
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 12:04 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
Numbers 31:17: Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Gee, I wonder how they figured out if a female had laid with a man.

Next verse: But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

You think I’m incensed by the murder and rape? Well, who wouldn’t be?

Not outraged? BS. And I'm not even bothering to quote Franks inumerable mentions of a 'Monstrous God' that he now claims to have no problem with.

And I still don't see the mention of 'rape' you insist is there.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 12:14 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Numbers 31:17: Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Gee, I wonder how they figured out if a female had laid with a man.

Next verse: But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

You think I’m incensed by the murder and rape? Well, who wouldn’t be?

Not outraged? BS. And I'm not even bothering to quote Franks inumerable mentions of a 'Monstrous God' that he now claims to have no problem with.

And I still don't see the mention of 'rape' you insist is there.



The god of the Bible is one of the most disgusting gods I've ever heard of...jealous, vindictive, vengeful, quick to anger/slow to forgive, absurdly demanding, murderous, and petty.

I am NOT outraged by it...any more than I am outraged by the actions of the troll of the bridge.

Accept that or not...your choice. But it is so, Leadfoot.

I feel the same way about the stories. They are myths.

Sorry I missed that you were referring to the stories...not the god. I apologize. But essentially...same answer.

One last thing: This is not said to be nasty to you. You seem like a decent person. But the "god loves you dearly" nonsense brings out the worst in me.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 12:15 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

...and buying into their silly myths.

Is that a blind guess about the stories of the bible?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 12:22 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

...and buying into their silly myths.

Is that a blind guess about the stories of the bible?


Yeah.

All I can do is to guess about the Bible...and I guess it to be a fanciful, self-serving history of the early Hebrews...interspersed with an absurd mythology. I base that guess on the evidence I have available to me...and I consider it a meaningful guess...although I acknowledge I could be wrong. (If I am, I also acknowledge I may be in for a rather uncomfortable eternity.)

BUT IT IS A GUESS.

I have no problem acknowledging that.
Glennn
 
  2  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 12:23 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Not outraged? BS. And I'm not even bothering to quote Franks inumerable mentions of a 'Monstrous God' that he now claims to have no problem with.

And I still don't see the mention of 'rape' you insist is there.

You should ask yourself why you've chosen to turn this discussion into a question of whether or not Frank and I are outraged. But I know you won't. So, let's continue on. The mythical god that you have no problem promoting is monstrous. He told Moses to kill all of the men, women, and children in the Midian incident. You're okay with that; hence my comment concerning your indoctrination.

And you didn't answer the question as to whether Moses went against the god's will when he decided that the virgin girls would be raped by his . . . group. Nor did you answer the question of whether or not you believe the victims of the rape were somehow turned on by, or endeared to, the men whom they had just witnessed slaughter their family and friends. I can't imagine that they would have been. In fact, of all the men in the world, I would think that the murderers would be at the bottom of their list of potential husbands. Hell, I'll go a step further and say that the murderers didn't even make the list. That means that they were unwilling sexual partners. That's called rape. Your thoughts?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 12:24 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Oops...it is NOT a BLIND GUESS...but it is a guess.
Glennn
 
  2  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 12:25 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
But the "god loves you dearly" nonsense brings out the worst in me.

Hear hear!!
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 12:35 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Don't worry Frank, I'm sure God thinks you're a dick.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 12:47 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Oops...it is NOT a BLIND GUESS...but it is a guess.

What distinguishes it from a blind guess?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 01:12 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Oops...it is NOT a BLIND GUESS...but it is a guess.

What distinguishes it from a blind guess?


You should be able to figure it out.

A blind guess is a guess based on almost no unambiguous evidence at all. A guess such as "there is a god" or "there are no gods" for instance.

A guess that is not a blind guess is one based on some evidence...often substantive evidence.

My guess is the New Orleans Saints will not win the Super Bowl played in early 2016. That guess is based on the evidence of play of the Saints...and their rivals. My guess is they will not even make it to the play-offs.

When I said, "If I am outraged at all (I really am not) it is by modern humans stooping to the level of ancient, superstitious, relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, extremely frightened humans...and buying into their silly myths"...which I acknowledged to be a guess...I was working with reasonable evidence. It is not a blind guess...BUT IT IS A GUESS.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 01:36 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Oops...it is NOT a BLIND GUESS...but it is a guess.

What distinguishes it from a blind guess?


You should be able to figure it out.

I'd rather not assume what goes on in your head, thank you.

Frank Apisa wrote:
A guess that is not a blind guess is one based on some evidence...often substantive evidence.


But others basing their beliefs a/o lack thereof on similar substantive evidence are merely making blind guesses.

Your criteria for what qualifies as "substantive" is clearly subjective.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 01:43 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Oops...it is NOT a BLIND GUESS...but it is a guess.

What distinguishes it from a blind guess?


You should be able to figure it out.

I'd rather not assume what goes on in your head, thank you.


I did not ask you to assume anything.

I suggested you should be able to figure it out. I was supposing (making a blind guess) that you have the intelligence for that kind of thing.

Perhaps I was wrong. That is one of the problems I have with blind guesses.

Thank you!


Quote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
A guess that is not a blind guess is one based on some evidence...often substantive evidence.


But others basing their beliefs a/o lack thereof on similar substantive evidence are merely making blind guesses.


Nope. But others making guesses with no substantive evidence...ARE making blind guesses.

But that is what I said. Didn't you read what I responded to your question? Should I continue to respond if you are not reading what I say?

Quote:


Your criteria for what qualifies as "substantive" is clearly subjective.


Okay...so what?

If you want to discuss why I consider the evidence for "there is a god" or "there are no gods" to not be substantive...we can do so.

I do not see any substantive evidence for either of those assertions. If you do...present it...and we can discuss it.
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 02:20 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The god of the Bible is one of the most disgusting gods I've ever heard of...jealous, vindictive, vengeful, quick to anger/slow to forgive, absurdly demanding, murderous, and petty.

I think that says it all, I need no further clarification of your position.
But Glennn is right, I'd rather get back to the core subject.

I'll have to study the specific text concerning Moses he asked about which I haven't read in over 30 years. So far I've been addressing generalities about the over all story of the bible in which I redily admit is a bloody violent one. War is that kind of business and the bible characterizes the over all story as a war in many places.

Do keep in mind that the old and new testaments are about two different eras and God deals very differently with man in the two if the stories are to be believed. In the old, anti-theists complain that he's a real bastard. In the new, they say there isn't any sign that he even exists. Both are hard to argue against.

I'll get back on Glennn's question about Moses when I've had a chance to read it afresh. If there is a specific chapter & verse to look for let me know.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 23 Oct, 2015 02:34 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
The god of the Bible is one of the most disgusting gods I've ever heard of...jealous, vindictive, vengeful, quick to anger/slow to forgive, absurdly demanding, murderous, and petty.

I think that says it all, I need no further clarification of your position.
But Glennn is right, I'd rather get back to the core subject.

I'll have to study the specific text concerning Moses he asked about which I haven't read in over 30 years. So far I've been addressing generalities about the over all story of the bible in which I redily admit is a bloody violent one. War is that kind of business and the bible characterizes the over all story as a war in many places.

Do keep in mind that the old and new testaments are about two different eras and God deals very differently with man in the two if the stories are to be believed. In the old, anti-theists complain that he's a real bastard. In the new, they say there isn't any sign that he even exists. Both are hard to argue against.

I'll get back on Glennn's question about Moses when I've had a chance to read it afresh. If there is a specific chapter & verse to look for let me know.


Thanks, Leadfoot.

I'm not sure of what Glenn was talking about with regard to Moses...but I have lots of difficulty with various aspects of where Moses was involved.

The plagues of Egypt come immediately to mind.

We've discussed these things at length over the years.

I'll listen in...and probably add my two cents.
0 Replies
 
 

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