What good does religion offer the world today?

@Frank Apisa,

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Second death!!!

Are we slipping into:

Don't know what the pix was a reference to but for someone who was studying for priesthood you seem strangely unaware of common biblical references. Just curious, you really hadn't heard of 'second death'?

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@Leadfoot,

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Absolutely correct. No reward either.

But whatever the reward, it would not be missed.

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Except for that last bit, that's all true too.

I'm not saying that you qualify for the second death, I don't know what a passing score is for sure. But let's say for the sake of argument that you don't get a passing grade. Can you honestly say you would not want the chance to know with certainty what the reality is before you die the second death? If I flunk out, I want to know.

Even the last bit was true. If the results of the second death (assuming there is one) is the same as the results of the first death, then being awakened after the first death is pointless. I assume that your point is that the god will wake you from your eternal slumber (subpoena you) to hold court for the purpose of reviewing your case, after which you will receive a thumbs-up or a thumbs-down verdict. Perhaps even the god is subject to the necessity for the proper paper work to be done and signed and copies made in triplicate.

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@Leadfoot,

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I'll take that as a 'yes' to my question of whether you would choose to remain a gerbil.

What can be said about the god in light of the fact that it offers you the choice between being its gerbil and being subject to death?

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Religion has never offered the world any good. It was only ever a tool to allow the fearful to face their mortality.

When I look at the balances that exist within nature, or try to consider the vastness of the universe, I'm intellectually honest enough to admit that I don't know if there's some underlying truth to our existence. But I've no doubt at all, that should that underlying meaning exist, whatever it may be, it's far more amazing than anything dreamt up by humans and their ugly, immature little superstitions.

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@Glennn,

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What can be said about the god in light of the fact that it offers you the choice between being its gerbil and being subject to death?

We've 'beaten it to death' already but the death spoken of in the garden was the first (not permanent) death.

Many see the life and choices Adam & Eve (and everyone else) face as severe and harsh, They are. Finding the reality underlying this life is not for pussies.

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@Wilso,

Wilso wrote:

Religion has never offered the world any good. It was only ever a tool to allow the fearful to face their mortality.

When I look at the balances that exist within nature, or try to consider the vastness of the universe, I'm intellectually honest enough to admit that I don't know if there's some underlying truth to our existence. But I've no doubt at all, that should that underlying meaning exist, whatever it may be, it's far more amazing than anything dreamt up by humans and their ugly, immature little superstitions.

Some of the art, at least, that's been inspired by religion is first rate, though.

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@Leadfoot,

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the death spoken of in the garden was the first (not permanent) death.

Accordingly, it's a holding cell, then.

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Finding the reality underlying this life is not for pussies.

Maybe. But accepting illogical ideas about reality is.

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@Glennn,

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Maybe. But accepting illogical ideas about reality is.

You're exposing your real feelings there Glennn. Keep your poker face on, you're supposed to be pretending to take it seriously.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

Some of the art, at least, that's been inspired by religion is first rate, though.

True that. Case in point:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/jesusdance.gif

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@Leadfoot,

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You're exposing your real feelings there Glennn. Keep your poker face on, you're supposed to be pretending to take it seriously.

Who says I'm supposed to be taking this seriously? I believe I've stated my case in no uncertain terms. If there were such a thing as blasphemy, it would be the act of putting a being of intelligence and love in a scenario in which it is made to appear as an infant who throws a fit and drowns its own creation because it is offended by it. How do you maintain a straight face while holding such a position?

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@Glennn,

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Leadfoot Quote:
"You're exposing your real feelings there Glennn. Keep your poker face on, you're supposed to be pretending to take it seriously."

Who says I'm supposed to be taking this seriously? I believe I've stated my case in no uncertain terms. If there were such a thing as blasphemy, it would be the act of putting a being of intelligence and love in a scenario in which it is made to appear as an infant who throws a fit and drowns its own creation because it is offended by it. How do you maintain a straight face while holding such a position?

Sounds like you are taking the story seriously. But you have to do better than just call it offensive. You have to explain Why it's offensive. You haven't explained that in the case of Adam & Eve which is the text currently under discussion. All God did was end up giving them the same life conditions we have now. Are you unsatisfied with it? If so, what is unfair about it?

But I assume you are now changing the subject to Noah's story about the flood. What do you find offensive about it? Do we not imprison or execute destructive people? Do we not go to war and kill millions when necessary? Yes, we have sometimes done that unnecessarily. At least God always does it for a worthy cause.

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@FBM,

FBM wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

Some of the art, at least, that's been inspired by religion is first rate, though.

True that. Case in point:

But then again, it's a subjective matter.

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@Leadfoot,

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Sounds like you are taking the story seriously. But you have to do better than just call it offensive. You have to explain Why it's offensive.

No, I don’t take the story seriously, but I do address those who do. And the issue is not whether or not we have the same conditions as the two people in the garden were granted, or whether or not I’m happy with life. The issue is the level of intellect that you’ve superimposed onto the face of a creator god in order to make the story tenable. The story is inconsistent with a divine being. In order to make the details of the story consistent with the doings of a divine being, you assigned your own human thinking and sense of justice onto the god-being.

I didn’t mention Noah’s ark. I believe you understand my point about the god wishing it had not created man, and then drowning the bunch of them. And again you use your own human reasoning and standards to justify the god’s execution of humankind. What of the collateral damage. Everyone was guilty? Were the children guilty? What about the animals? Later in the story, the god causes the sun to stand still in the sky for hours and parts the Red Sea, but apparently, when it came to tossing all of the people whom it found to be an abomination thirty-seven and a half miles off the shore of the nearest ocean, it couldn’t do it. Instead, it took out every living being. Can you say inconsistency?

Also, instead of tossing the Midianites thirty-seven and a half miles off the shore of the nearest ocean, the god chose to whisper into Moses’ ear that he should tell his people to pick up god-sanctioned swords and go plunge them into the bodies of children and the bellies of pregnant women, and to leave none breathing; well, except for the young females--them they could take for themselves. No doubt you have already justified this atrocity in your mind in a way that doesn’t make it smell and taste like the murder and rape that it is. The problem with believers is that they become incapable of judging correctly. Instead of judging the god according to its deeds, they judge the deeds according to the god. The voice inside Moses’ head was telling him to murder men, women, and children, and to rape young girls. If that is not enough to convince you that it wasn’t the voice of a divine being Moses was listening to, then for god sake, what would it take? Perhaps some swear words thrown in here and there?

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@Glennn,

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The issue is the level of intellect that you’ve superimposed onto the face of a creator god in order to make the story tenable. The story is inconsistent with a divine being. In order to make the details of the story consistent with the doings of a divine being, you assigned your own human thinking and sense of justice onto the god-being.

True, that is the real issue.

But the story says that we were 'created in God's image', just as you charge me with believing. Obviously this referred to God's values and sense of justice. No inconsistency there. I trust you will not make the absurd claim that it means our physical form.

But you appear to superimpose your undefined term 'divine' on God. Besides the obvious power a God would have, what would make God 'divine'?

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@Leadfoot,

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But the story says that we were 'created in God's image', just as you charge me with believing. Obviously this referred to God's values and sense of justice.

You're saying that the god's values and sense of justice are the same as that of humans, which is another way of saying, "If you've seen the values and justice system of humans, you've seen the values and justice system of the god." If that were true, then the god would not have a problem with what the humans valued. But it did. So, you are wrong concerning that issue. You are simply trying to find a way to justify the god sanctioned murder and rape of the Midianites, as if the god is bound by a human nature.

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But you appear to superimpose your undefined term 'divine' on God. Besides the obvious power a God would have, what would make God 'divine'?

Define the word divine. Now, tell me that nowhere in the Bible is the god referred to as divine.

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@Glennn,

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You're saying that the god's values and sense of justice are the same as that of humans, which is another way of saying, "If you've seen the values and justice system of humans, you've seen the values and justice system of the god."

Yes, the core values written on your 'heart' are those of God. But you also have the free will to go against them.

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If that were true, then the god would not have a problem with what the humans valued. But it did. So, you are wrong concerning that issue.

See first answer about free will and the choice to deny the reality of those inborn values. So what human values do you think God would have a problem with?

Leadfoot Quote:
"But you appear to superimpose your undefined term 'divine' on God. Besides the obvious power a God would have, what would make God 'divine'?"

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Define the word divine. Now, tell me that nowhere in the Bible is the god referred to as divine

Since you brought the term up, I was asking for YOUR definition since you ascribed that to God.
Actually, there are only 3 references to 'divine' in KJV and none of them directly addressed to God. There is a mention of his values being divine.

All the other references to 'divine' are as the synonym for 'discern'.

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@Leadfoot,

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Yes, the core values written on your 'heart' are those of God. But you also have the free will to go against them.

I do not go against the core values I hold. If I destroy a child of mine because he/she goes against my core values, how does that make me any different from the god?

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So what human values do you think God would have a problem with?

Judging by the the means employed by the god to solve its problems, it shouldn't have a problem with any human values. The god sounds like a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of being when one considers its instruction to Moses to commit murder and rape to solve its problem.

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Since you brought the term up, I was asking for YOUR definition since you ascribed that to God.
Actually, there are only 3 references to 'divine' in KJV and none of them directly addressed to God. There is a mention of his values being divine.

All the other references to 'divine' are as the synonym for 'discern'.

You have decided to define the word divine as a verb. Not pertinent to this discussion, but you knew that. Here is the definition applicable to this discussion: Of, from, or like God or a god. Moreover, if the god is not divine, then what is? Was Jesus divine?

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Second death!!!

Are we slipping into:

Don't know what the pix was a reference to but for someone who was studying for priesthood you seem strangely unaware of common biblical references. Just curious, you really hadn't heard of 'second death'?

I have heard of it.

But the sound is the same as "the unborn."

Both would make great movie titles.

And if you do not know what the pix reference was...perhaps YOU are the one out of touch, Leadfoot.

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@Frank Apisa,

By the way, Leadfoot...

...the story of Adam and Eve...and the garden...and "the fall"...

...should be in a book titled, "Mother Goose Stories.

Really!

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@Leadfoot,

In Noah's flood God's sense of capital punishment for the world including the drowning of women and children is over the top and without conscience...

Worship me or else!

God being an unjustified instrument of mass murder does not readily spring to mind lofty ideas of love and compassion.

Besides, Noah's flood is a bold faced lie and an exaggeration of events used to scare little children and feeble minded adults. The New Testament implores us to speak the truth yet this coming from a book of lies seems hypocritical at best.

Today's logic indicates that one is more ethical with honoring any God but the God of the Abrahamic religions of the Bible.

I prefer to get my ethics from a rationally thinking social majority.

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What good does religion offer the world today?

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