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What good does religion offer the world today?

NSFW Forums: Religion, Social Media, Idle Discourse, Anti-Religious Memes
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neologist
 
  2  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 12:30 pm
@Leadfoot,
I wrote:
Sheesh! Doesn't anyone think about the value of an instinctive conscience?
Leadfoot wrote:
So you are saying Adam & Eve DID have the knowledge of good & evil prior to the 'tree of knowledge' episode? I'm not following you here.
Would not a perfect conscience impel one to act morally without ruminating over details? Jesus referred to this conscience at Matthew 7:9,10
Quote:
Indeed, which one of you, if his son asks for bread, will hand him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, he will not hand him a serpent, will he?
The decision to choose good and bad for oneself is a rejection of the standards God created within us.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 12:41 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
. . . That's Neo's take on the story.
You have consistently shown you have no inclination to understand my 'take'.

Oh, I understand your take well enough, what with all of it's non sequiturs, rationalizations, etc. It's a gas.
Quote:
Rather, you search my words for reasons to indict God. I refer you to this observation:
Quote:
Sciolism is ever intolerant, and theological hatred is generally to be measured by the mental incapacity of those who indulge in the luxury. . . . - Thomas Inman
Perhaps you consider this ad hominem.
Only if the shoe fits . . .

Sure, and yours is of a profundity evidenced by your take on the Job story.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 12:44 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
. . .. I'm saying that it's a laugh the idea that God has no choice but to be complicit in the tormenting of Job/humankind.
Glad you said that. Perhaps another explanation is in order.

Ok, explain.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 12:57 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
THE ALTERNATIVE WOULD HAVE BEEN TO ARM THE TWO PEOPLE WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD...OF RIGHT AND WRONG SO THAT THEY COULD EXERCISE THIS SUPPOSED FREE WILL WITH SOME KIND OF REASON.
I think he wanted them to have that knowledge from the beginning. It's possible God wanted even that to be a matter of their free choice though.


The way for them to get that knowledge...was to allow them to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

He expressly forbid that...because it would make Adam and Eve like gods...who have the knowledge of good and evil.

Why the god did not want Adam and Eve to be like gods...we don't know.

But to suppose the god wanted them to know...but forbid them from getting the knowledge makes no sense.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 01:01 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . Adam and Eve did not know there was anything wrong with disobeying the god. The god denied them that knowledge.. . .
neologist wrote:
What part of if you eat it, you will die do you think they could not understand?
Frank Apisa wrote:
What part of "it doesn't matter if they understand the words"...what matters is if they think there is something "bad" about dying. . .
If you believe they had not been around long enough to see animals die, you are deluding yourself.


So...they saw animals die.

Maybe they thought the animals had souls...and went to an even better place.

THEY DID NOT HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL...AND THE GOD INSURED THAT THEY NOT KNOW.

At some point, you've got to come to grips with that, Neo.

Stop being so afraid.

You say your god loves you.

So...don't go overboard...but just do a bit to show you are not afraid of the god.

Lemme hear you say, "Okay...I guess the god could have let Adam and Eve know the difference between good and bad...rather than punish them for doing bad without knowing there is a difference."

C'mon...just something as innocuous as that.

Just write it to your god.

Show the god you really do think it loves you...and that you are not in terror of the monster.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 01:03 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank wrote:
THE ALTERNATIVE WOULD HAVE BEEN TO ARM THE TWO PEOPLE WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD...OF RIGHT AND WRONG SO THAT THEY COULD EXERCISE THIS SUPPOSED FREE WILL WITH SOME KIND OF REASON.
Leadfoot wrote:
I think he wanted them to have that knowledge from the beginning. It's possible God wanted even that to be a matter of their free choice though.
Sheesh! Doesn't anyone think about the value of an instinctive conscience?

If a bird knows how to take care of it's young, why would not humans have been endowed with a more complete sense of morality?


So...you are saying that your god could have provided them with the knowledge...but instead let them rely on an obviously defective instinctive conscience????

Neo...c'mon man!
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 01:06 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

The decision to choose good and bad for oneself is a rejection of the standards God created within us.

How could one choose good and bad without the knowledge of good and bad?
neologist
 
  2  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 01:06 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . .So...you are saying that your god could have provided them with the knowledge...but instead let them rely on an obviously defective instinctive conscience????

Neo...c'mon man!
They had a choice!
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 01:11 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . .So...you are saying that your god could have provided them with the knowledge...but instead let them rely on an obviously defective instinctive conscience????

Neo...c'mon man!
They had a choice!


An uninformed choice. The myth is an absurdity, Neo. You are smarter than this.

Your fear of the god is what is driving you to rationalize this sting story.

Test it: Tell your god here in public that you understand why it did what it did...but wouldn't it have been better to let Adam and Eve know the difference between good and evil before putting them into that terrible situation with a tempter...and then horribly punishing them AND ALL THE REST OF HUMANITY FOREVER for screwing up.

Just question the god a bit...not rudely...but politely.

God...why did you put them into that situation so ill prepared...and why a punishment of such severity for a relatively minor thing...disobedience.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 01:13 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
If you believe they had not been around long enough to see animals die, you are deluding yourself.

Animals died in Paradise? Is that JW doctrine, or are you ad-libbing here?
neologist
 
  2  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 01:14 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
How could one choose good and bad without the knowledge of good and bad?
Allow me to simplify.
Does a bird generally care for it's young rather than just eat them or ignore them? Would that be because they had an instinctive knowledge of what is right? If you can't see the connection between that and conscience, I don't know if I can help you.

Adam and Eve had only one choice: whether to accept or reject God's standards.
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 01:17 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . God...why did you put them into that situation so ill prepared...and why a punishment of such severity for a relatively minor thing...disobedience.
Why do you believe they were unprepared?

And, as far as punishment vs. consequence: having rejected God's sovereignty, they came under Satan's control.
neologist
 
  2  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 01:22 pm
@InfraBlue,
neologist wrote:
If you believe they had not been around long enough to see animals die, you are deluding yourself.
InfraBlue wrote:
Animals died in Paradise? Is that JW doctrine, or are you ad-libbing here?
Do you suppose dinosaurs existed in Eden? Isn't that an ID teaching?

Show me how you arrive at immortal animals. That should be a hoot.
neologist
 
  2  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 01:27 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
. . .. I'm saying that it's a laugh the idea that God has no choice but to be complicit in the tormenting of Job/humankind.
neologist wrote:
Glad you said that. Perhaps another explanation is in order.
InfraBlue wrote:
Ok, explain.
I thought you were going to explain. .. .
neologist
 
  2  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 01:29 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
So...they saw animals die.

Maybe they thought the animals had souls...and went to an even better place... .. .
So, death is a good thing? Some warning!

You are a hoot, Frank!
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 01:55 pm
@neologist,
Quote:

Adam and Eve had only one choice: whether to accept or reject God's standards.
My problem with your version of the story is that it assumes that knowing good from bad is against God's standards. Been a long time since I read the story but I do not remember God saying that. He only told them that if they made the choice to know, they would surely die.

Now that I think about it, that is exactly the choice I was once faced with. I chose death rather than remain ignorant of the answer to a question I had about what was 'good or bad'. I wrote about it in another thread about what it's like to die.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 02:49 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

. . .. I'm saying that it's a laugh the idea that God has no choice but to be complicit in the tormenting of Job/humankind.

Glad you said that. Perhaps another explanation is in order.

Ok, explain.

I thought you were going to explain. .. .

What more is there to explain? God is complicit in the tormenting of Job/humankind, excuses notwithstanding.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 02:53 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

neologist wrote:
If you believe they had not been around long enough to see animals die, you are deluding yourself.
InfraBlue wrote:
Animals died in Paradise? Is that JW doctrine, or are you ad-libbing here?
Do you suppose dinosaurs existed in Eden? Isn't that an ID teaching?

You tell me, you're the one making the assertions.

neologist wrote:
Show me how you arrive at immortal animals. That should be a hoot.

I would think it would be arrived at in the same manner that you arrive at the immortality of humankind.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 03:06 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
How could one choose good and bad without the knowledge of good and bad?
Allow me to simplify.
Does a bird generally care for it's young rather than just eat them or ignore them? Would that be because they had an instinctive knowledge of what is right? If you can't see the connection between that and conscience, I don't know if I can help you.

Adam and Eve had only one choice: whether to accept or reject God's standards.

How does this apply to choosing good and bad without the knowledge of good and bad, especially when you speak of moral generalities? What about the exceptions that you mention?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 18 Oct, 2015 03:42 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . God...why did you put them into that situation so ill prepared...and why a punishment of such severity for a relatively minor thing...disobedience.
Why do you believe they were unprepared?

And, as far as punishment vs. consequence: having rejected God's sovereignty, they came under Satan's control.


They were innocents, Neo...innocents whom your god denied knowledge or right and wrong...of good and evil.

Wake up!

It is a myth...invented by a mythmaker who did not know how to make reasonable myths. The story is an abomination...the god is an abomination. The only likeable people are Adam and Eve...two people put into an impossible situation in this myth...and then punished for doing what a five year old would have known would happen.

Wake up!

If your religion is built with this story as its foundation...leave the religion, because it is a fraud.
 

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