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What good does religion offer the world today?

NSFW Forums: Religion, Social Media, Idle Discourse, Anti-Religious Memes
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TheCobbler
 
  2  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 06:48 am
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1484268_10205598769477567_4815715694002368919_n.jpg?oh=0d80964681e0e2cdd93a61dd923ec779&oe=568900B8
0 Replies
 
TheCobbler
 
  2  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 06:51 am
@Frank Apisa,
Great post FRANK...

Why does humanity need God as reason for evil or rational?

Evolution explains it quite well and logically.

Empathy and evil are also observed in the animal kingdom... Love and nurture is not only a human trait.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 09:41 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
If you are willing to justify or rationalize the conduct of the god of the Bible with regard to what happened to Adam and Eve in the garden...to rationalize and justify what happened to all of humanity in that pathetic myth of a "fall"...
But since you are unwilling to see the events clearly, I ask - Of what are you terrified?
You wrote:
C'mon. Let us hear you speak up to your god, Neo.

Show us you are not terrified of the god.
Dust off one of your Bibles, Frank. Open it to Habakkuk 1:2-3. You will note many faithful men asked the same thing. But, instead of relying on their own 'knowledge of good and bad" they trusted in God.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 09:55 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
If you are willing to justify or rationalize the conduct of the god of the Bible with regard to what happened to Adam and Eve in the garden...to rationalize and justify what happened to all of humanity in that pathetic myth of a "fall"...
But since you are unwilling to see the events clearly, I ask - Of what are you terrified?


I do see "the event" clearly, Neo. You are the one too terrified of the god to take a look at it with open eyes.

You just keep repeating that "they should have known not to disobey"...although the silly story tells us distinctly that they did not know there was anything wrong with disobeying.

In fact, the fact that they did not know...IS THE POINT OF THE STORY.

Finally see it, Neo. The god cannot hurt you. Stop being so afraid.


Quote:

You wrote:
C'mon. Let us hear you speak up to your god, Neo.

Show us you are not terrified of the god.
Dust off one of your Bibles, Frank. Open it to Habakkuk 1:2-3. You will note many faithful men asked the same thing. But, instead of relying on their own 'knowledge of good and bad" they trusted in God.


Adam and Eve did not know there was anything wrong with disobeying the god. The god denied them that knowledge.

They did not know they should "trust in god"...because they did not have the ;information needed to know that. That information was denied them...by the god.

Your argument is a joke...and if it does not come from terror of the god, I'd like to know whence it does.

Oh, by the way...in that Habakkuk 1:2-3 scenario...did the god expressly deny the people you say "trusted in god"...that knowledge?

Did your god refuse to let them know the difference between right and wrong?

Give it up, Neo. The story is an abomination. It talks of a sting perpetrated on unsuspecting innocents by an abominable god.

Your fear of that god is the only reason you buy into it.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 10:37 am
@neologist,
Quote:
I believe I have answered and explained.
Satan's allegations about Job are the same as they are about all humans and, in fact, all intelligent creation: that no one will serve God except out of selfishness. Here are a few examples:
Quote:
Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. (Luke 22:31)
Quote:
4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life.(Job 2:4)
Consider the tests he placed on Jesus. Besides offering him control of the earth (Matthew 4:9), he later submitted Jesus to cruel torture and death. There are countless examples of men and women who have been faithful under these tests, so one might think that, by now, sufficient evidence would exist for God to put an end to Satan's rule. Sufficient, yes. But we are not the timekeepers.

I agree with much of what you said but there was a deeper principle undelying the events of Job. As much as I admire Job, he and the rest of us were secondary to the main conflict. Satan's challenge was that there was nothing inherently surperior in God's values to his own.

I can't offer you any scriptures to 'prove' it but God's creation of Man and his reasons for it was a separate issue. Satan was only using Man as hostage in a desperate attempt to justify, or at least get away with, his own rebellion.

BTW, his rebellion was not a 'sin' simply because it was against God. It was a sin because it was a denial of the reality that God's values were better than Satan's in an objective sense. God could not simply decree this to be so. To be true to his own values, he had to be willing for the conflict of values to play out. Some might say that it was unfortunate that Job and Man were caught in the crossfire but God uses this conflict to further his own goals for Man.

Satan's statement about man being willing to give 'all he has' to save his own life is just another denial of reality. As you said, there are examples of men being willing to give up their own lives rather than give up their values. I've been there myself.
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 11:16 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . Adam and Eve did not know there was anything wrong with disobeying the god. The god denied them that knowledge.. . .
What part of if you eat it, you will die do you think they could not understand?
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 11:19 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
. . . I agree with much of what you said but there was a deeper principle undelying the events of Job. . . .
Quite right. Several issues. They could not be solved by simply zapping the rebels and starting over. We should appreciate that. We would not exist otherwise.
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 11:39 am
@neologist,
Nails In The Fence
Author Unknown

There once was a little boy who had a bad temper. His father gave him a bag of nails and told him that every time he lost his temper, he must hammer a nail into the back of the fence.

The first day the boy had driven 37 nails into the fence. Over the next few weeks, as he learned to control his anger, the number of nails hammered daily gradually dwindled down. He discovered it was easier to hold his temper than to drive those nails into the fence.

Finally the day came when the boy didn't lose his temper at all. He told his father about it and the father suggested that the boy now pull out one nail for each day that he was able to hold his temper. The days passed and the young boy was finally able to tell his father that all the nails were gone.

The father took his son by the hand and led him to the fence. He said, "You have done well, my son, but look at the holes in the fence. The fence will never be the same. When you say things in anger, they leave a scar just like this one. You can put a knife in a man and draw it out. It won't matter how many times you say I'm sorry, the wound is still there."

The little boy then understood how powerful his words were. He looked up at his father and said "I hope you can forgive me father for the holes I put in you."

"Of course I can," said the father.

Comment:
God gave Job greater than what he had before but God could not remove the scars he put in Job...

Might Job have done better to not have trusted in God at all? Is God incapable of holding his own temper?

No person is without fear and the greatest fear is a tyrannical barbaric man-made God imposed brutally upon the masses through fable filled holy books and male chauvinistic, hypocritical laws...

You can remove the nails but you can't remove the scars...
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 11:42 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . Adam and Eve did not know there was anything wrong with disobeying the god. The god denied them that knowledge.. . .
What part of if you eat it, you will die do you think they could not understand?


What part of "it doesn't matter if they understand the words"...what matters is if they think there is something "bad" about dying.

Wake up!

They DID NOT KNOW good from bad...wrong from right.

The story is about a couple who did not know right from wrong...but get punished for doing wrong.

The god is an insult to any GOD that might actually exist.

To suggest that if a GOD actually exist...it would conduct itself the way the god of the Bible does...

...is a greater insult to the GOD than anything any atheist or agnostic has ever said to you, Neo.

Wake up! Stop being terrified of that idiot god.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 11:53 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
THE ALTERNATIVE WOULD HAVE BEEN TO ARM THE TWO PEOPLE WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD...OF RIGHT AND WRONG SO THAT THEY COULD EXERCISE THIS SUPPOSED FREE WILL WITH SOME KIND OF REASON.
I think he wanted them to have that knowledge from the beginning. It's possible God wanted even that to be a matter of their free choice though.
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 11:53 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . Adam and Eve did not know there was anything wrong with disobeying the god. The god denied them that knowledge.. . .
neologist wrote:
What part of if you eat it, you will die do you think they could not understand?
Frank Apisa wrote:
What part of "it doesn't matter if they understand the words"...what matters is if they think there is something "bad" about dying. . .
If you believe they had not been around long enough to see animals die, you are deluding yourself.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 11:53 am
@neologist,
You're implying that God could not have acted differently. The idea that he, an all powerful entity, is a victim of his own machinations is a laugh.
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 11:55 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
You're implying that God could not have acted differently. The idea that he, an all powerful entity, is a victim of his own machinations is a laugh.
So, you are saying he is a 'victim' of upholding his own standards of love and justice?
And that's a bad thing?
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 11:57 am
@Frank Apisa,
I agree Frank, the Bible is a road map of how a "real" god would NOT conduct themselves.

0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 11:57 am
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:

Quote:
I don't see how God isn't complicit, seeing as how he put Job--and by your interpretation, humankind--in Satan's hands.

Indeed! Or, at the very least, the god is guilty of succumbing to the temptations of Satan at Job's expense. What I gather from the story is that Satan convinced the god that he had something to prove.

That's Neo's take on the story.
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 12:03 pm
@Leadfoot,
Frank wrote:
THE ALTERNATIVE WOULD HAVE BEEN TO ARM THE TWO PEOPLE WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD...OF RIGHT AND WRONG SO THAT THEY COULD EXERCISE THIS SUPPOSED FREE WILL WITH SOME KIND OF REASON.
Leadfoot wrote:
I think he wanted them to have that knowledge from the beginning. It's possible God wanted even that to be a matter of their free choice though.
Sheesh! Doesn't anyone think about the value of an instinctive conscience?

If a bird knows how to take care of it's young, why would not humans have been endowed with a more complete sense of morality?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 12:12 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Sheesh! Doesn't anyone think about the value of an instinctive conscience?
So you are saying Adam & Eve DID have the knowledge of good & evil prior to the 'tree of knowledge' episode? I'm not following you here.
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 12:13 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
. . . That's Neo's take on the story.
You have consistently shown you have no inclination to understand my 'take'. Rather, you search my words for reasons to indict God. I refer you to this observation:
Quote:
Sciolism is ever intolerant, and theological hatred is generally to be measured by the mental incapacity of those who indulge in the luxury. . . . - Thomas Inman
Perhaps you consider this ad hominem.
Only if the shoe fits . . .
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 12:19 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
You're implying that God could not have acted differently. The idea that he, an all powerful entity, is a victim of his own machinations is a laugh.
So, you are saying he is a 'victim' of upholding his own standards of love and justice?
And that's a bad thing?

I'm saying that it's a laugh the idea that God has no choice but to be complicit in the tormenting of Job/humankind.

The implication that this torment is "good" is an absurdity.
neologist
 
  2  
Sat 17 Oct, 2015 12:22 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
. . .. I'm saying that it's a laugh the idea that God has no choice but to be complicit in the tormenting of Job/humankind.
Glad you said that. Perhaps another explanation is in order.
 

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