55
   

What good does religion offer the world today?

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2018 07:50 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Research has shown that placebo’s work even when people are told they are placebo’s ahead of time.

I've read the same. My guess is that the test subjects were the beneficiaries of the human contact they received during the course of the study.

'Science' for the most part demands that we ignore that factor as irrelevant because we can't study it in a test tube or petri dish. Big Pharma ignores it because they can't put it in a pill.

Quote:
Lu:6:39: And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2018 08:25 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
'Science' for the most part demands that we ignore that factor as irrelevant because we can't study it in a test tube or petri dish.


This isn't at all true. There have been several well-done scientific study showing benefits of spiritual practice on health.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2018 09:00 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Research has shown that placebo’s work even when people are told they are placebo’s ahead of time.

I've read the same. My guess is that the test subjects were the beneficiaries of the human contact they received during the course of the study.

They were very interesting studies. They used the normal process of double-blind delivery except that in this case, the patients and doctors could see the word "Placebo" on the medicine cups. No attempt was made to disguise the contents and they were informed ahead of the study what was being done.

These results were compared to previous tests with the same process except for the disclosure.

What it tells me is that some patients don't care what they are getting as long as they are getting something. The mere act of engaging in being treated has an effect. It's really pretty amazing. And demonstrates clearly that it's hard to differentiate between purely chemical results and psycho-biological results.

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2018 09:05 am
@maxdancona,
That's why I included 'for the most part'. There are always exceptions. But very little of this research gets any real recognition or attempts made to implement it on a national scale other than lame recommendations to 'stay connected to family, friends, etc.'

Might be a fitting example of "having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof".
0 Replies
 
jewelpendant4
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2018 09:07 am
@TheCobbler,
It still offers the world a moral lamp stand. A call for modesty rather than the wide chase for all that is banal without considering the impact
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2018 09:19 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
What it tells me is that some patients don't care what they are getting as long as they are getting something. The mere act of engaging in being treated has an effect. It's really pretty amazing. And demonstrates clearly that it's hard to differentiate between purely chemical results and psycho-biological results.

Absolutely! The study patients were getting the unspoken message that someone cared about their pain and were trying to help.
So how do we put that into a national program?

I would posit that the leading cause of death for people under age 50 (accidental drug overdose) is due to the pain of living in this society and is not 'accidental'. These people either consciously or unconsciously, are willing to die rather than face life without the relief that drugs gives them.

Trying to solve that problem by making it harder to obtain drugs is doomed to failure because it does not recognize the root of the problem. We have not really learned the lessons of those placebo studies.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2018 01:25 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
Absolutely! The study patients were getting the unspoken message that someone cared about their pain and were trying to help.
So how do we put that into a national program?
How about a national program where someone actually does care and is trying to help?
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2018 01:13 pm
@maxdancona,
The Bible talks about "the prince of the power of the air"...

Leading people to believe in the power of placebos and Gods that don't exist or care to provide miracles...

Eventually they will need something concrete for that cancer and not just well wishing and sugar pills.

It is precisely at the moment that the realization comes that prayer won't cure their cataracts. This is when the disillusionment is revealed, the deception exposed and when they reach out for something that is not "fake" they get a handful of air...

Gullible religious people will pay a lot of money for air these days...

The only people endorsing this "power of the air" are shysters and people hoodwinked by the charade.

Sugar pills might make your tummy feel good and promote a false sense of well being, for a while that is, but will they cure those cataracts? There is not a single documented case...
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 08:59 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
How about a national program where someone actually does care and is trying to help?

You mean like the good that religions offer the world today?

Oh wait, a national program of that kind is against the law isn't it..

But yes, you see how difficult that would be. What would you envision such a national program would look like? What would it be based on?
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 11:16 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
You mean like the good that religions offer the world today?

Oh wait, a national program of that kind is against the law isn't it.

National programs intended to help people are not against the law. Only National programs that promote religion (of any type) are.

There might be national programs based on religion intended to help people without promoting or proselytizing religion, but I don't think I can name any. Do you know of any?

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 01:46 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
National programs intended to help people are not against the law. Only National programs that promote religion (of any type) are.

What if the solution that society needs is 'spiritual'?

It’s not a lack of material things that is at the root of those 40,000 overdose deaths, or the 32,000 suicides by guns, ropes, etc. per year. If you try to solve a spiritual problem with material solutions, you get exactly the absurd situation we are now in. Now it’s the opioid boogeyman the government blames.

I’m not really expecting anything to change nor do I want Government to try. It’s a problem that can only be solved by each individual for himself. But for anyone to do that, they must recognize what the problem is, and it isn’t the availability of drugs or guns.

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 02:01 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
There might be national programs based on religion intended to help people without promoting or proselytizing religion, but I don't think I can name any. Do you know of any?

The Salvation Army does a lot of good work with minimal promotion. I send them a few bucks now and then.

But can you really expect someone who really believes there is a God behind all this to not even hint about it? That’s kind of 1984-ish.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 03:07 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
National programs intended to help people are not against the law. Only National programs that promote religion (of any type) are.

What if the solution that society needs is 'spiritual'?

What if the solution that society needs is a brutal dictator? Should we do that? Some solutions come at too high a price. And mixing government and religion comes at an unacceptable price. Of course, I just happen to agree with the first amendment of the constitution.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 03:09 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
The Salvation Army does a lot of good work with minimal promotion. I send them a few bucks now and then.

They do seem like a decent organization, despite their religious roots. But are they government funded at all, or are they private?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 03:22 pm
@rosborne979,
The Salvation Army is all self funded as far as I know.
0 Replies
 
centrox
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jan, 2018 05:06 pm
@jewelpendant4,
jewelpendant4 wrote:
It still offers the world a moral lamp stand. A call for modesty rather than the wide chase for all that is banal without considering the impact

This reads very much like the spam posts that come (and go!) in the New Topics section - heavy on on words, and eerily and very recognisably light on meaning. Moral lamp stand indeed.

0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2018 06:52 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Leadfoot quote:
"What if the solution that society needs is 'spiritual'?"

What if the solution that society needs is a brutal dictator? Should we do that?


Quote:
Wiki:
Reductio ad Hitlerum, also argumentum ad Hitlerum, is a term coined by philosopher Leo Strauss in 1951. According to Strauss, the Reductio ad Hitlerum is a humorous observation where someone compares an opponent's views with those that would be held by Adolf Hitler or the Nazi Party.


The rest of the discussion was refreshingly open and objective and I enjoyed it. Thank you.

rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2018 06:58 am
@Leadfoot,
I see that you conveniently avoided the main point once again. Nice work.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2018 10:39 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
I see that you conveniently avoided the main point once again. Nice work.


The other point you brought up (mixing government and religion) is not one I'm interested in nor one that I've advocated.

I understand that the term 'spiritual' is one that you think is synonymous with religion as would most I guess. Religion is merely the attempt to understand our spiritual nature but it's not the thing itself.

As long as society denies its own spiritual nature and pretends to be purely materialistic. it is doomed to stay on the path it is on. I'm just pointing out how silly the government programs designed around this premise are.
0 Replies
 
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Feb, 2018 09:38 pm
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0 Replies
 
 

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