1
   

Beheading and entering heaven

 
 
EL SEGUNDO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:22 pm
The only thing these terrorists understand is Violence, our laws are looked upon as a weakness by these"people". They only understand an eye for an eye. and untill we start giving it back, they will continue to see US as being weak easy targets.
0 Replies
 
JustanObserver
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:26 pm
McGentrix wrote:
That's called the law. It's what makes America the greatest country on Earth (with the exception of those countries inhabited by people on A2K who take exception to that statement. Your countries are just as great...).

Our code of justice does not allow for that type of action Bvamp. That hype you speak of is from the religious zealots of Islam trying to recruit more terrorists. It's the same as the 72 virgins in heaven for each martyr.


Exactly.

Don't let your anger get in the way of clearly seeing the situation, Bvamp.



_______________
Life is a comedy to those who think, and a tragedy to those who feel.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:27 pm
EL SEGUNDO wrote:
The only thing these terrorists understand is Violence


False. This is yet another of those "sounds nice but has no factual basis" claims.

If you assert otherwise feel free to attempt to substantiate it.

Quote:
our laws are looked upon as a weakness by these"people".


This is a generalization that you can't substantiate.

Quote:
They only understand an eye for an eye.


False. This is yet another of those "sounds nice but has no factual basis" claims.

If you assert otherwise feel free to attempt to substantiate it.

And in any case, their "understanding" of an eye for an eye usually just translates into "we are mad, we will kill" which is where it already is at.

Quote:
and untill we start giving it back, they will continue to see US as being weak easy targets.


Another of those feel good statements. But that's no biggie, no matter what we do right now, I think the ones who are currently attacking us will simply continue to attempt to do so.

-------------

Politics aside, welcome to A2K. Hope you like it here despite the conflicting political positions you'll run into.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:32 pm
Although Jews make every attempt to pick up body parts and bury them as can be witnessed after every bombing in Israel. There is nothing that would keep one from going to heaven. After all it is the spirit or soul that goes to heaven not the body. The belief that the body must be whole upon burial stems from the premise that with the advent of the arrival of the messiah the dead will arise.

That aside I am grateful that Saudi Arabia believes in capital punishment so that when and if these people are caught they will be duly punished. Something the sob sisters in the US will be able to agonize over.
0 Replies
 
EL SEGUNDO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:37 pm
Craven de Kere, Thank you for the kind welcome.
well as I see it what we did after any attack on us before Sept,11,2001 was nothing. we sat back and did nothing. heck after the USS Cole was attacked by these people we did nothing. by attacking the Cole, that was an act of war. but we did nothing. they saw this as a weakness. and planned an even bigger bolder attack,Sept,11,2001.
after that we struck back. the more we hit back the less of them there will be left to attack us.
I am sorry if you folks dont agree with me, but my former Army Infantry Butt says "KILLEM ALL AND LET GOD SORTEM OUT.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:43 pm
There is a Jewish custom that the body be buried intact. Of course that presumes all the body parts are present to be buried. But that is the rules/regs for burial, not for the soul.

The terrorists I believe do the beheading because they know how horrific that is to the person's loved ones and even their own scruples, such as they are, would forbid even more morbid/painful/graphic means of killing somebody. (Saddam Hussein apparently had no similar scruples but he wasn't your average Arab Moslim either.)

I become white hot angry everytime these conscienceless thugs does one of these murders. And I can appreciate the urge to go bomb them into nonexistence. But I think that's what separates us from them or other savage animals: we choose not to act on our feelings.

In El Segundo's defense, I do believe the evidence shows that the Islamic fundamentalist terrorists have an agenda to bend the world to their will as much as they are able to do so. And as such, normal diplomatic negotiations are relatively ineffective. The only negotiations they seem to think are satisfactory are 100% capitulation to their demands.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:50 pm
So now that we struck back, by your reasoning they should begin to "understand" at any time and perhaps cease to see us "as being weak easy targets"?

Your implication is that this will somehow deter them to some degree. Personally, I think they are a bit off their rockers and I don't think they plan to change the way they see us.

To me, it seems to work like this:

Right now: "We hate America and will kill them all and let Allah sort them out."

If we do "nothing" (as you say): "We hate America and will kill them all and let Allah sort them out."

If we "strike back": "We hate America and will kill them all and let Allah sort them out."

Ultimately, I think they are pretty entrenched in their lunacy.
0 Replies
 
NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:50 pm
It's only common sense. Once you are beheaded how can you wear one of those shiny halos? It just wouldn't look right over a neck or with ypour head in your hands.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:59 pm
I can't remember where I read it but it was within the last two or three days--I'll try to find it--but the writer was talking about it being relatively unlikely that the terrorists would strike at the summer Olympics. The thesis was that terrorists take the path of least resistance--it is rare that they strike where people are expecting them and are prepared to resist/stop them. They rather choose the unexpected, the ill prepared, and careless to hit.

If the thesis is correct, it would stand to reason that if enough people get fed up with terrorist murder and mayhem, more people will expect it, more people will be prepared and willing to resist/stop them. And it seems reasonable that terrorists would find fewer places to hide and fewer places to do their worst and eventually would either be killed or would just give up.

And that is how I believe the war against terror will be won.
0 Replies
 
GeneralTsao
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 05:13 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I can't remember where I read it but it was within the last two or three days--I'll try to find it--but the writer was talking about it being relatively unlikely that the terrorists would strike at the summer Olympics. The thesis was that terrorists take the path of least resistance--it is rare that they strike where people are expecting them and are prepared to resist/stop them. They rather choose the unexpected, the ill prepared, and careless to hit.

If the thesis is correct, it would stand to reason that if enough people get fed up with terrorist murder and mayhem, more people will expect it, more people will be prepared and willing to resist/stop them. And it seems reasonable that terrorists would find fewer places to hide and fewer places to do their worst and eventually would either be killed or would just give up.

And that is how I believe the war against terror will be won.


And for this very reason, they chose an Ohio shopping mall.

However, let's say the homicide bomber walks up to the (new) security gate at the mall. He realizes that he will likely be caught, so he just detonates himself right there.

Mission accomplished. Dozens of people killed or injured. Most of whom were waiting in line at the security checkpoint.

I just don't see how the public being vigilant can stop such an attack unless the public is willing to carry concealed weapons...then I fear that an innocent person will be shot because they "looked" like a terrorist, like me, for instance. I ALWAYS get the "random" check for bomb residue, taking off my shoes, going through my briefcase, etc.

General Tsao
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 05:55 pm
Does anyone know if the terrorists who have beheaded these folk believe that this makes them unable to enter heaven? Otherwise, I am not quite sure where that part of the Bvamp's question comes from.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 06:08 pm
Generaltsao writes:
Quote:
However, let's say the homicide bomber walks up to the (new) security gate at the mall. He realizes that he will likely be caught, so he just detonates himself right there.

Mission accomplished. Dozens of people killed or injured. Most of whom were waiting in line at the security checkpoint.

I just don't see how the public being vigilant can stop such an attack unless the public is willing to carry concealed weapons...then I fear that an innocent person will be shot because they "looked" like a terrorist, like me, for instance. I ALWAYS get the "random" check for bomb residue, taking off my shoes, going through my briefcase, etc.


What ethnic group do you descend from, General? I have some rather 'rugged' looking relatives of Italian/Mexican/Spanish heritage that believe they get almost as much scrutiny at the airport as do the old people in wheelchairs.

But seriously I think it does require vigilance; properly trained and licensed armed citizenry, and a willingness to do some social profiling. And it is also going to require people to get involved and report suspicious activity, etc. Had a couple of passengers or the pilots on those airliners on 9/11 been legally armed, the outcome may have been the same. Maybe not. It couldn't have been any worse. Mostly I think we just have to get angry again and refuse to be intimidated by a figurative handful of murderous thugs.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 06:13 pm
Dear lord, "solutions" to terrorism seem to invariably be of the ilk that will end up with more dead people than there would be without the "solutions".
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 06:21 pm
You will think this odd coming from a liberal bear but I believe an amendment to the constitution should written..."A caught with your pants down" amendment. If you're caught red handed with no loopholes for defining "red handed" committing a crime that suits the death penalty, then bang. One 2 penny bullet to the head and bye bye. Cheap and effective.

Or, execution on pay for view with all monies going to reduce the National debt. That way no one has to view the barbarism except barbarians, which we have plenty of.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 06:29 pm
Dlowan asks if terrorists believe beheading their victims will keep their victims from going to heaven. No. It is intended as humiliation. Terrorists already believe we 'nonbelievers' are headed straight for eternal hell.

Paraphrased exerpts from Islamic law:

One's fate is entirely in the hands of Allah, and Allah requires a true and perfect understanding of, and a devotion of one's life to, the cause and law of Allah. These laws are known through Muhammad's revelation in the Qur'an and in his pattern of life (Sunnah) recorded in the Hadith. If Allah decides to send a Muslim to Hell, he can be punished there for his sins and then go to Paradise afterward. Unbelievers are sent to hellfire for eternity.

Shari'a. This the constitutional law for Islam, the sum of guidance revealed to Muhammad that governs all ritual, social, political and commercial actions. It is the basis for Islamic theocracy. The four sources for Shari'a are the Qur'an, Hadith, Ijma (consensus of the Muslim community and its scholars, the ulama), and the Qiyas (analogical reasoning or deduction based on the other three sources). Shari'a is the source of some of the controversial criminal penalties such as amputation, stoning and beheading for crimes such as adultery, theft, prostitution and fornication.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 09:06 pm
Oh Foxfyre,

You are confusing your religions.

It is Christians who beleve that nonbelievers are headed straight for eternal hell. "Controversial" criminal penalties, such as stoning for fornication, is straight from the law of Moses.

I feel confident in saying these things because I am culturally a Christian. I learned about Christianity from a Christian point of view. I am able to look at it from a place of understanding and I know the good and the bad.

Commenting on a religion that you are not a part of is in poor taste. If you want to learn about Islam, I would suggest you find someone who is part of this religion.

I somehow doubt that someone who is part of the Muslim faith would have the same perspective. Nothing personal, but I would tend to trust their perspective over yours.
0 Replies
 
GeneralTsao
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2004 08:36 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Generaltsao writes:
Quote:
However, let's say the homicide bomber walks up to the (new) security gate at the mall. He realizes that he will likely be caught, so he just detonates himself right there.

Mission accomplished. Dozens of people killed or injured. Most of whom were waiting in line at the security checkpoint.

I just don't see how the public being vigilant can stop such an attack unless the public is willing to carry concealed weapons...then I fear that an innocent person will be shot because they "looked" like a terrorist, like me, for instance. I ALWAYS get the "random" check for bomb residue, taking off my shoes, going through my briefcase, etc.


What ethnic group do you descend from, General? I have some rather 'rugged' looking relatives of Italian/Mexican/Spanish heritage that believe they get almost as much scrutiny at the airport as do the old people in wheelchairs.

But seriously I think it does require vigilance; properly trained and licensed armed citizenry, and a willingness to do some social profiling. And it is also going to require people to get involved and report suspicious activity, etc. Had a couple of passengers or the pilots on those airliners on 9/11 been legally armed, the outcome may have been the same. Maybe not. It couldn't have been any worse. Mostly I think we just have to get angry again and refuse to be intimidated by a figurative handful of murderous thugs.


Foxfyre,
I am 50% chinese. My father escaped the Communist takeover circa WWII. My father's family had first-hand experience with the Communists--something people today seem to have forgotten (China? Most favored Nation? You're kidding, right?).

People have said I have an "exotic" look. What a funny thing to say. Very Happy It's interesting because I have one of those "nice" faces where people would be surprised to hear a foul word coming out of my mouth or see a cigarette there, either.

But I have almost-black, curly (yes, curly) hair down to my waist (down to my butt if it weren't curly). Oh, and I have a goatee--just like all terrorists. Smile

As a sidebar, I don't complain about being stopped for the "random" checks at the airport. I know it's for everyone's safety. I just think it's funny that they try to convince me it's random. ROR

Overall, I agree with you on the vigilance thing. I'm just afraid that our country's most outspoken people are too "soft" to handle the thought of armed citizens in the shopping malls, and I do think that there will be an occasional innocent person shot or detained because he looks or acts suspicious.

This is unfortunate, but it will happen, and error is a fact of life, and losing one life or offending a number of people is much less expensive than losing hundreds of people.

Some of the flak the government is now taking is over why they didn't scramble and shoot down the hijacked aircraft which ended up hitting the twin towers and pentagon.

But, if they had shot them down, the government would have been sued for wrongful death, etc.

There is no 100% Win in this battle we're fighting. I wish more people realized that.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2004 09:59 am
Recently was the anniversary of Tieneman square. I heard interviews of young Chinese students about the massacre. They said "It was sad that unarmed students were killed, but it was necessary for the good of the state". They actually justified the masscre because it was worth a few lives to keep order and save many.

The United States is different. We are unique because we offer rights to everyone. Even murderers (even those that everyone knows are murderer) have the right to go to court. Each citizen in offered privacy and liberty until they are shown to have broken the law.

Liberty is dangerous. The fact the police need a warrant to tap my phone, makes it much easier for me to commit a crime. The fact that I can buy a handgun makes it much easier for me to murder someone.

In China, they don't care if an occasional innocent person is shot or detained. In many countries you don't need a warrant, you can racially profile and tap phones and search apartments.

And guess what. China has a lower crime rate. Even more, In spite of great confilcts (they are supressing several peoples) there is very little terrorism in China.

We have to choose between a fair, free and just nation... or a nation that gives up liberty and fairness for security.

I, for one, prefer to live in the United States than China.

General. I would fight for your right to not be considered a terrorist based on your appearance. I only wish you would. It is the American thing to do.

I love my country. I will not let the terrorists nor hysterical fear change the very things that make her great.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2004 12:43 pm
I think General is being honest, reasonable, and 100% patriot here. He's right. Americans sometimes are too 'soft'.

It isn't politically correct to say so, and it could change today or next week or at any other time, but right now the people highjacking airplanes, blowing themselves up in shopping malls, leaving car bombs to kill and maim innocent people, issuing statements of intent tol destroy 'the great Satan" ie Americans and anyone else who does not conform to the will of the terrorists--these people doing these things are not Nordic-looking, Irish-looking, English-looking but they are middle-Eastern looking.

To give middle-Eastern-looking people more scrutiny in shopping malls, in airports, or in any other settings where terrorists commit viscious acts does not only protect innocent people who are not middle-Eastern looking, but it also protect innocent people who are middle-Eastern looking.

We cannot realistically look closely at every man, woman, and child in every public setting. But we can realistically look for and give a bit of extra scrutiny to the most likely culprits.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2004 12:50 pm
ebrown writes:
Quote:
Commenting on a religion that you are not a part of is in poor taste.


You just did Smile
And you did it incorrectly. Some Christians do believe non-believers are destined for hell and they can make a case for that from the Bible. Most Christians would not make that judgment and many Christians do not believe that and they can also make a case for that from the Bible.

I didn't write the paragraphs re Islamic law via the Qu'ran that were excerpted from much longer, tedious passages. They were written by an expert of Islam who is of that faith. I will ask him for the link if there is one. I don't want to plow through my copy of the Qu'ran to find them.
0 Replies
 
 

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