Buddhist Dilemma?

Thats pretty funny, JLN.

Asherman, here's one for you:

We know that all sentient beings on earth will experience suffering.

Therefore, if we have children, we know they will eventually suffer in this world.

Why then, as a Buddhist, would anyone choose to bring children into a place where they will suffer? Knowingly subject them to suffering?
(I picture my child being heartbroken, subjected to envy, etc., having to work a job they don't like, see them in their old age, sickness...now I know this is focusing on the negative, but still...)

If no one had children, wouldn't this end human suffering?

(Again, not trying to be sarcastic here, just really wondering how Buddhists get around this one. Why create more wanton suffering creatures?)

If I may insert my two bits. I do want to end my (existential) suffering and that of others. But the way to do that is not simply to have no children--I've already done that. In order to end my suffering I must awaken from the illusion of suffering. I don't want to complicate the picture too much but it is also the case that samsara (suffering) is the same as Nirvana. Nirvana is not pleasure; it is the realization of the illusion of suffering. Now if you ask me if that means also that Nirvana is an illusion (since samsara=nirvana), I would answer in the affirmative. But my response has to be understood subtly. A zen scholar, Robert Linssen, put it this way: "The fact that we are Reality, and that we have never ceased so to be, and that in consequence the realization is but liberation from a mirage.... Because a mirage is in a certain sense non-existent the fact of being delivered from it is...non-existent." The understanding of this utterance requires, itself, at least a small degree of mystical refinement.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but the getting ot them is pleasurable. Children are often the best teachers of the Way, both by positive and negative example.

Though some Buddhist priest marry and have families, traditionally those in the monastic orders most fervently devoted to the practice of Buddhism don't. Not because by driving the species to extinction would eliminate suffering, it wouldn't, but because families foster attachment and are distracting. On the other hand, most Buddhists aren't priest nor monks, but householders who live everyday lives filled with responsibilities, cares and little pleasures. I think most would agree that those who don't have children are deprived.

True the children will suffer, but properly raised they will be able to handle what suffering they must.

at serious odds with modern science? yes



You have pointed out a serious flaw in Descartes logic: thinking does not prove that oneself exists, it only proves that a self exists. I never thought of this before. But it would be possible for one mind to have multiple separate consciousnesses...it would be possible for our mind to create independent, thinking consciousnesses for our dream people. In this scenario, our dream people would think...but not exist.

However, this was not your point. It does not matter if our dream creatures think or not, either way, you know that you think, and therefore there must be a mind for your consciousness.

----

tcis, i hope you follow Asherman's advice...it pains me to see others asking for advice on how to live their life. I want to see you take control of your own life! no offense.

Actually, that was my point. The difference between our dreams, and the dream we inhabit is that there is no Cosmic consciousness; it just is.

You are right, mathematicians, physicists, and quantum theorists don't use such romantic verbal flourishes as I do. Sorry about the misspelling.

Dreams are strange things. I see people I do not remember ever meeting, but they have facial features I do not remember seeing during my waking hours; mostly women. I see them once in my dreams, and they're gone. puff!

advice for tcis
well maybe tcis you can cultivate some new desires
like the desire to create more love in the world for you and others
they say in buddhism the mind is emptyness
but that emptyness is something you can choose to fill with love
love not as an idea but love as a real energy as in being in harmony with something or all things (people included)
for example
when you go to the forest....... see the beauty of the forest
fill your heart with the joy of this creation.....
with the beauty of the trees flowers plants animals etc
the vastness of the sky
the awesome clouds
the shining life giving warmth of the sun
the beauty of the sunset or the sunrise
a mountain range
anything
feel man feel
you gotta feel it dude
connect with it
the energy....... the aliveness of all things
the vibration.........
its not in your head its outside.....
ok its inside too....
its real
and its all one not you and it
you are it and it is you :wink:
dont step out of life..... step into it
this is life ... alll is life all is alive...its all it can be
dont make separations
learn what a joy it is to simply BE alive or just the joy of simply being here and now
its precious..we only have this moment
make it one of love and light and happiness
live it be it do it have it
i finally say
stop concentrating on the negative and 'all this suffering' let it go
start concentrating on the positive and all the love thats in the world
if you want to lose your desire... lose your desire to suffer and feel empty
ok
may peace and love for all be with you
byeeeeeeeeeeee

Asherman,

I'm very confused that you don't disagree with my last post!!

I said this:



and if a mind exists, then something exists, then it is not all just a dream...which you were saying before.

Did you need me to say, "I disagree"? Of course I do, but you knew that already.

The dream analogy is no more perfect than any other. It breaks down at some point. "how can there be a dream without a dreamer?" I don't know. That which is complete of itself, that transcents time and space and that has no "personality/mind/consciousness" never-the-less gives rise to the perceptural world in which we "exist" for a moment trapped inside both time and space.

Actually, I thought that I had reponsded adequately to your last post. I certainly didn't mean to overlook you. Your points/questions are on point, and you approach the discussion as a serious person. Not to respond would be the sort of conscious rudeness that I try to avoid.

If this is all a dream, does that imply that nothing here matters that much?

How you deal with the dream matters; but not TOO much.

Tcis,

Whether it's a dream or not a dream has nothing to do with the importance of what we do. Importance is a relative term, nothing has importance when there is no purpose. Whether you believe in Buddhism or science, either way they agree that our life has no purpose.

This is something you should definitely keep in the back of your mind...but it shouldn't be affecting your decisions, like "should I help him? nah, it doesn't matter anyway." That is a bad way to look at it. Because although our lives have no overrall purpose, we do have emotions...and our emotions give us purposes such as happiness. You can find happiness in numerous ways, it does not mean necessarily being selfish...I guess Buddhists find happiness by helping others, and seeking enlightenment, thus knowing that they have made a difference. Even if we exist in a dream as Asherman exists, you cannot argue the fact that we do (all of us) think and have emotions...thus, we each have these personal goals of happiness and everything in this world (dream or not) is important relative to us.

it is what you make it
nothing more nothing less

See that sounds all nice and wonderful and makes sense.

Yet, lets take a poor orphan kid in Baghdad right now, who just lost his family. He hears the bombs blasting as he goes to sleep each night. Has to run from blasts once in awhile.

Versus some

Middle-class kid in Santa Barbara who is surrounded by a loving family and friends.

Is it really true that its "all what they make it?" Does the orphan kid have the same opportunity to "make it... whatever" as the other kid?

too bad... people starve to death are raped and murdered everyday
welcome to planet earth :wink:
its up to you if you take all this negativity on board i dont. and i advise you not to either .. it doesnt help it doesnt make the world better
its not our fault...we didnt start the fire,its been always burning since the world been turning and if i can help someone out i will
for the rest its just too bad
if you got a problem with it.... complain to the government and the UN theyre the ones supposed to be running this world its their problem and they shud deal with it
and there are rich n poor in america too... is same all over world.. worse in some counties than others
maybe we all should work on caring for each other more instead of living in worlds of our own
my advice is stop feeling bad about it all and go out n do your best to make this world a better place
maybe you cant change it right away but the more people try the more sooner we will have a world of love n light instead of a world of suffering and horror
thats my opinion
now im off back to living this great and amazing life ive made for myself
have fun
byeeeeeeeee

Asherman, I want to compliment you on your patience. Stuh, is a bright young man who has obvious talents in certain areas, but where Buddhism is concerned he cannot even ask meaningful questions. I will say, what you are not rude enough to say: he is in kindergarten where it comes to matters of mysticism, Buddhism, and non-dualism (well, regarding the last he has said some interesting things). I would answer some of his questions by telling him that he is not even wrong.

tcis, you ask the meaninful question: "If this is all a dream, does that imply that nothing here matters that much?" I would say from my limited understanding of Buddhism and my personal non-dualist grasp of Reality that yes, not much matters IN the dream, but the awakened one enjoys a great liberation, a freedom that goes beyond mattering and not mattering. The irony is that the dream drives us to distraction with attachments to desires and objects of desire that seem to matter (to ego) profoundly.

yup i agree with you JLnobody and good one to asherman too
don't worry be happy enjoy it
i am a tibetan buddhist and i go to the samyeling monastery which is the first and biggest in the west
heres the website if your interested in the tibetan vibe at all...
http://www.samyeling.org
ps its in scotland.. sorry americans dudes
only practice makes you perfect

I admit that I know very little about these subjects, although I think I have got a pretty good general understanding from reading all of Asherman's posts as well as numerous articles on nondualism from the other post. I am not insulted by pointing out my lack of knowledge on this subject...I have zero interesest in such matters. I merely learn them as need be to understand the arguments that people make.

However, your insult to my questions is out of line. My questions pinpoint the most obvious logical breaches from my perspective. I could give good arguments for why I asked each question and I highly doubt Asherman shares your feeling that my questions are pointless and idiotic.

JNL, you come off as a real smart ass, who knows absolutely nothing about nothing. Im sure I come off as a smart ass too, but at least I'm a SMART smart ass. May I enquire about your education? our credentials? Did you get scholarships? Did you graduate college? Did you have a GPA above 3.5 at all times? Are you famous among ANY scientific circles? Have you published any well known papers? Written any best selling books? Designed any new technology? Did you have a real degree (sciences, math, engineering, or medical)? Or did you waste all your time in the college of arts and sciences? Do you have your masters? Are you a doctor? Are you even in a ten year track position? Or are you just an uneducated 60 year old man who sits by his computer and convinces himself that he knows something by spewing out unintelligable garbage over the internet? I will assume, by your idiotic posts, and by your lack of capacity for reason, and by the way that you immediately jump on every bit of mystical hooplah and are ready to believe any made up garbage, that you are in fact the latter.

dudes we should all think peace and love for our fellow humans

Stuh, did I offend you?
You may be right, that I know nothing about nothing. But you really underestimate me. I'm far older than sixty.