Buddhist Dilemma?

Now I see Asherman noted that the path can lead some to pscyhotic states and mental institutions.

Who would've guessed something like this could actually be so dangerous?

tcis, I believe all religions alter the mind. I'm still not sure between the benefits vs the harm. My personal existence does well without religion. I guess you can say that "travel" is my religion. I believe in it whole-heartedly.

I've never known anyone harmed by the practice of Buddhism, much less from having an Awakening experience. I'm aware that some personalities, being terrified of the experience, have required psychological counseling/confinement. Those cases of post-experience depression that I've heard of were temporary.

In any event, its hard to imagine not being profoundly changed after experiencing Ultimate Reality. The underlying personality and ego, that which existed up to the moment of breakthrough, are like foundation stones that one returns to as the Illusory World reasserts itself. If the ego/personality were comletly merged into the Buddha Nature, the Illusory World probably would not reassert itself at all. I suppose the result might appear to the World as a catatonic trance, but the ego would be gone ... merged back into the indivisible.

What does change is one's understanding of how Reality is structured. Having a different view about the nature of space and time, and the relationship of things, must have an effect on how one deals with the Illusory World. Just regarding the perceptual world as having no more substance, nor value, than a dream changes thoughts, words and behavior. Values that once were central to the personality no longer occupy the same importance. As you yourself have noted, in the post-experience one may find it absurd to pursue anything since all paths are equal and ultimately valueless.

Of course, all things aren't in the perceptual world equal in almost any sense. After a time, you have to begin making choices again. Even recognizing that the future can never be reached, we still have to plan for it, or be driven by chance to almost certain suffering. Hopefully, you will be more aware of how your thoughts, words and behavior will effect outcomes, and choose more carefully. Catching a glimpse of Reality, we are made even more aware of how little we know of how its infinite nature is "reflected" in the Illusory World of gross perceptions.

All of your choices will be made with great uncertainty as to effect, but choices will be made anyway. Almost everything is beyond our ability to control, so the exercise of control (or its attempt) should be only reluctantly attempted. Control yourself.

Has anyone actually achieved nirvana?

Why is it that it seems no one can actually point and say: "yes, that person has reached nirvana. They are in nirvana at this time."

It seems like it always someone somewhere else that someone heard of...etc.

What is enlightenment, really?
What is to be expected at full Enlightenment? What would such a state look like?

Will one still be in this world?

It seems that its always something like: "Oh, yes this master 300 years ago was said to have achieved enlightenment..."

Rarely do you hear of anyone enlightened right here, right now.

Asherman woud probably say this question is not helpful: How or why did we end up in this predicament of being in this world of illusion. I think Buddha himself didn't like the endless spacey questions. Still, that question persists: Why would we all be put in this predicament in the first place? I can see some of it is karma. But there had to be an initial big bang to start the wheel rolling. What would be the purpose of that? Just so we could all watch this video of our lives going by, trying to get back to the place we left?

You're right, that's exactly my response to the your last question.

There are no beginnings, or endings to Ultimate Reality. It was, is, and will always be. Space is defined by the relationship of one thing to another. If there in No Thing, no multiplicity, then space doesn't exist. Time is the measurement of change. Change is the difference in the relative relationship of one thing to another. To the Indivisible Buddha Nature, Ultimate Reality, all multiplicity is illusory as is time and space.

If you have had the Awakening experience, you should know this in a more persuasive way than I can manage with English. The perceptual world is filled with people who have had the experience, and are walking around today more or less Enlightened. I don't know how one compares the enlightenment of His Holiness the Dali Lama, with Ned Nickerbocker the best backyard mechanic in East Gopher Hole, Wyoming. I see no value in even trying to make such comparisons, for there ares no differences to Ultimate Reality. Leave such unprofitable stuff aside and get on with the important stuff ... improving your own understanding and ability to mitigate suffering.

Asherman, what about "I think, therefore I am"?



our personalities are constantly changing, i dont expect to be the same after major experiences...i have changed many times...i would be surprised if buddhism hadnt changed you.

I see your point.

Maybe its my western mind that wants to know if anyone is actually in nirvana.

If they truly are there, that is the person I want to spend my life studying with, if possible. Why accept anything less?

It seems like it would simplify things so much. Have one person that is in nirvana. And they would show everyone the way. Very clear. But I don't know that anyone out there is actually completely in the state of nirvana.

So, to a degree, isn't a bit of the blind leading the blind? I mean, we have the 8 fold path and the 4 noble truths and all the writings. But it seems like we also need teachers who have actually achieved nirvana. You don't hear this mentioned much. Usually, it more like "this is a very advanced master to study with."

But no one actually comes around and says they have actually reached nirvana.

The reason I keep harping on this is: it almost gets back to faith. No one knows anyone who has reached nirvana, yet we strive toward it.

Are we striving toward something that is unattainable?

Decartes dictum, "I think, therefore I am", has often been pointed to as perhaps the most valid proof that "something" exists.

The "actors" in our dreams also believe that they are thinking and have real existence. Do they? From Henry Miller, "What happens to the chairs that deadmen sit upon in our dreams when we awaken". The thing is that we can never clearly establish the "reality" of existence so long as we are apart of it. Back to the old Cave Analogy. Once you have an experience outside what we generally regard as real, perceptual reality, we have a basis for forming a different perspective. Now that perspective itself, to be fair, is also subjective and not provable in any acceptable fashion to modern scientific thought. The whole Awakening experience might well be only a series of misfiring electrons between synapsis. I don't think so, but can't prove otherwise ... and certainly wouldn't condemn anyone for taking that position.

It seems to me that 20th/21st century fundamental physics and mathematics tends to support many of the assertions that have been made about the nature of things by those having the Awakening experience. A lot of the experience descriptions seem counter-intuitive, not unlike Quantum Theory. There is nothing I know of in modern science that is at serious odds with Buddhist notions of Ultimate Reality. On the other hand, I'm often struck by how anyone can cling to Abrahamic doctrines/religious texts in light of what we now know of physics.

The experience has over a very long time been reported in many cultures and times. The basics of the experience seem to be identical, and the understanding that comes with the experience seems to generally lead to specific thought and behavior thereafter. The "proof" is in the tasting.

Tcis,

From your report, you have had an Awakening experience. You have experienced Nirvana, do you doubt it? You are potentially a teacher/physician now ... but you aren't yet ready, are you?

There are many teachers of The Way, they are not hard to find. You may be afraid of following a mountebank. There are ways to separate them from legitimate teachers. Having experienced Awakening, you should be able to detect most frauds who have not had the experience. Does the prospective teacher have ulterior motives; wealth, fame, power? Are you told things that run counter to the vast majority of writings by many generations of Master's? How much does the teacher suffer, irrespective of their relative wealth, health and position in the world? Believe me the frauds aren't hard to detect, and its best to avoid them.

As I've said a couple of times above you have, to my mind, three alternatives before you. Choose.

I believe I experienced a brush with Nirvana. But somehow, when I came back, I was in some way scorched, burned. And now in more suffering than when I began!

So, you're right, I am in no way ready to be a teacher. Oh, I could tell people all the words and sound good. But I wouldn't feel it.

Yes, to Choose. That is the Question. Every choice seems ultimately inadequate. Yet we must choose.

everyone is inadequate as a teacher, but you have to do the best you can with what you have. Your understanding can deepen, your ability to mitigate the suffering that you encounter can be sharpened.

Clearly, you need to learn more and become ready for your next Awakening experience ....OR... you should let the experience that seems to have disturbed you remain in the past. The past is gone, the future where all will be clear and perfect (or terrible) will never arrive. You have THIS moment and no other. You will either have courage, or you will shrink away from what you are now uncertain about. No one can tell you what to choose, or how you will live your life.

...

Asherman,

Maybe my question is as simple as this: When you say "There are many teachers of The Way," do you mean these teachers have reached nirvana?

What I'm getting at, is: have at least some of the masters in the temples actually reached nirvana? Have they made it all the way?

Has Dalai Lama actually reached nirvana? Has anyone since Buddha?

Tcis,

Is it then your choice to overcome personal suffering by becoming fully-Enlightened? Again I refer you to the Theravadans, and the Pali canon.

I'm not in the business of judging how enlightened others are, nor comparing my insights with theirs on some sort of scale. The half-witted janitor in an office building may be the Greatest Master of the Age, or maybe not. Look around you. There are innumerable Buddhas, and even more Bodhisatvas. That is the end of the road, you haven't put more than a foot on it yet.

You seldom catch whales in the bathtub, so cast your line in those seas where you are most likely to find someone whose experience is greater than your own. Follow them, until they become your student.

BTW, His Holiness, I'm sure, would laugh at your question as to the degee of his enlightenment.

Asherman,

Here's the rub: Whatever I did, whatever I went through: it destroyed some of my ability to Choose well.

There is sort of no one home to make a choice.

That went out with the ego and personality.

I don't doubt what you are saying. It just seems like the "Chooser" self is sort of...gone.

Must study more.

Stuh, you ask why one does not automatically experience enlightenment if he understands the theory behind it? Because enlightenment is not an intellectual accomplisment any more than reading a recipe will give you nourishment. And all the moral prescriptions of the world religions, tolerance, patience, humility, generosity, kindness, etc. etc. will not in themselves bring one to mystical fulfillment. Cruel, impatient, greedy and arrogant people are very unlikely to experienece satori, moksa, self-realization, etc. Moral virtues are necessary but not sufficient.

Don't cop out. You are making choices constantly. You choose to turn on the computer, and visit this site. You choose to engage us in a dialog about what you experienced and what path you should follow from here.

Your ego is not missing, just a bit bruised.

I think JL recommended that you take a break from this question and how to deal with your experience. That is a good suggestion. Though prohibited in the Eight-Fold Path, find a quiet corner and make a closer acquaintance with Jack Beam. Watch a comedy, or for that matter a tragedy. Sing bawdy songs with a pal, and bay at the moon. Walk along the shore, or through the forest. Climb a mountain, go skydiving. Have a great meal at the best restaurant in town, and sleep until noon.

Then, pay attention to what you are doing. Discipline your thoughts, and form your words with care. Sit facing a blank wall, while focusing only on controlling your breathing. Don't fidget. Empty your mind. When errant thoughts occur, as they surely will, acknowledge them and then let them go. Go back again and again to controlling your breath. Empty minded, but totally aware.

You are right. Thanks Asherman.

I was trying to get rid of the Chooser/self.

Perhaps a better angle is to work on the Chooser/self.

Glad to help. You'll be alright, remember this is only a dream. Accept and appreciate it's pleasures, and know that the suffering is equally illusory. Avoid attachments, but seek out ways that you can reduce the suffering of others. Pay attention!

Too much talk, not enough doing. Too much thinking, not enough feeling. Too much emotion, not enough understanding.

tcis, you state at the top of the page (I'm so far behind) something like who would guess that something like Buddhism could be so dangerous. I would add, Yeah, like marriage. But what would we do without it?