Buddhist Dilemma?

Thanks, Noddy. I hope Stuh takes it as it is intended: not as a put-down but as a statement of collective policy. Civility is basic to our "mitwelt". I am not at all pleased either with the nature of my response to Stuh. Aggression and rudeness invite aggression and rudeness, but that is no excuse for me. I wish my reaction to his tendency to depreciate those who disagree with him (with terms like weak minded, idiots, etc.) had been presented with a tone like yours.

JLNobody--

I'm old enough to remember Dragnet--on the radio!--"The facts, ma'am, just the facts."

Thanks for the kind words.

Noddy,

This thread was started by tcis, and his topic was about his personal admitted depression due to following Buddhism without guidance. My post was a general comment regarding situations such as tcis'...and I didn't mean for it to be taken as an insult...calling someone depressed could be taken as an insult, but he already admitted to it first so I don't think it is.

I have read through all the posts on this thread and I don't see that ANY of them have to do with "becoming aware"...it starts of as tcis' personal issues...then goes into buddhism in general...and then goes into getting mad at me. Where do you see the topic of "becoming aware"?

Re: Buddhist Dilemma?


Stuh,

I appreciate all the comments posted here, including yours.

While I didn't specifically mention awareness in the orginal post, I did mention nirvana and enlightenment.

I am interested in the relationshiop between pursuing nirvana and related episodes of apparent psychosis, neurosis, depression, etc.


For the record, I didn't take your comments as a put down. Actually, your post gave me a good chuckle. Something different. (and this is not intended to be a put-down to you).

Anyway, whatever, even if it was a put-down, what do I care? I may have taken a wrong fork, but I did make it past the point where a put down from an online stranger would bother me.

The question is: if a person finds theirself in the original predicament above, where do they go from that point? When you merge into a void, there is nothing to plant your feet on...
yet life in the physical world goes on.

Its like being stuck halfway between a void and the physical world. Half in this world, half out. A limbo of sorts.

Can anyone relate? ( from their posts, I know JLNobody and Asherman can).

I have had an "awakening" as Asherman has described. This is what it was like. I was walking down a road and as I looked from the ground to the horizon I instantly had no dialect what so ever in my head, it was as if I was viewing the world from a babies eyes, as if I knew no words, I simply was. It lasted maybe a minute then I became aware and the dialect in my head thought I should tell someone about this, then it happened again for about another minute. This was one of the most if not the most incredible experience I have ever had. I loved it. Words can not come close to describing this. I didn't work for this it seemed like a gift from God. It was peaceful, ultra serene and seemed pure. I am able to attain this more often these day's but I have to cultivate it. How I do this is through constant contact with God to the best of my ability at any given time.
Would anyone else like to share a similar experience? I would love to hear from you.

tcis, I am glad that I did not offend you.



to the contrary, I consider this a compliment.



Let me know if you think the association I make is not accurate...

I think that, being a very convinced atheist, my outlook on life may be very similar to your current outlook. I am very aware of the meaningless insignificance of my, and our entire race's, existance.

You have described this realization as being very depressive. For me, it makes me feel happy and free. I think to myself, "look at me here, a spec on this tiny planet...here for no purpose, just playing with life until I expire...I can do what I want, take the risks I want...see if I can make myself into someone notable...it's all a game...everyone gets dealt different cards but everyone has the potential to do anything...it's just a game, will I be able to have fun with it? toy with life?"

paula,
I think I have had a similar interesting experience...I think I have shared it once before on these forums...but no harm sharing it again. It was very interesting for me. It was actually a dream, but the experience was very real to me:

i was in the desert with some friends, on top of a tall desert hill, with a cliff halfway down the hill
we were on top
and started eating salty peanuts even though we were already thirsty
i just couldnt get enough of those damn peanuts
but the peanuts made me stop caring about everyting else
everything
and i started to roll down the hill
but i didnt care i just kept eating those peanuts
and i came to the cliff
and rolled off
looking up
smiling at my friend
as she looked down at me in horror
plunging to my death
i was so happy


the moment when I was falling to my death felt like a true period of enlightenment. I dont even exactly know if I am using this word the way it is meant to be used...but it sounds right. It was like...complete and utter uncaring about my future and everything...complete bliss. I hope I die this way.

Stuh,

I agree with parts of the above, but your comments also seem to imply that one can sort of do anything they want with no regard to how it might effect other people. I have made that mistake. I have learned that, yes, I can do anything, but it is also important try not to hurt other people along the way.

Are you saying you can do whatever you want with no regard to anyone else?

"it's just a game....toy with life"

Stuh,

Here is where I have to disagree with you. I can't believe we're put here just to be in some game, to toy with life.

Part of the structures of life seem game like. Society. And its probably good not to take it all too seriously.

But I believe there is something more going on beneath these apparent games on earth. Games are on the surface. There is something happening beneath the games, even if we may not see it.

Tcis, although I think that our lives are meaningless, I still have emotions, and I am very attune to the suffering of others; it hurts me to see people suffer, and so I always take other people into consideration when I do things. My morals are a bit different than most peoples'....but I follow them strictly.

On your second post: ah, ok...herein lies the difference between our perspectives. I am convinced that we were not put here, and therefore that we have no purpose...whether that purpose be to progenate, to play the game of life, to learn, whatever....I simply do not believe that we have any purpose at all. Believing this, I think there are two choices which can be made: one of them is to wallow in my own feeling of insignificance, the other is to be happy for my opportunity to be here...and this is the option I choose...and so I choose to think of life as a game.

As I've comment numerous times before, the Awakening experience is not absolutely unique to Buddhism, but is reported in virtually every time and cultural setting. The loss of ego and self-consciousness, accompanied by a merging with the infinite is often described as life's peak experience; better by far than any second-place finisher. Those with an artistic/poetic, or mystical bent seem to be somewhat more susceptible to the experience, though shepards also get mentioned frequently.

The Awakening experience is so profound and different from the mundane world that is commonly accepted as real, that many say that it is indescribable. Nonsense. The problem is that we struggle to find metaphors and similes, and they always fall short. Each person who has this experience will describe it using the cultural/religious vocabulary that they are most familiar with. I've always thought that it is this experience is reported in the "Cave Analogy". Folks with predominantly an Asian slant and vocabulary talk about enlightenment, whereas a 10th century Englishman is struck by the "flower in a crannied wall" bit of poetry. Mystics in the late Middle Ages reported union with God, and were burned for their audacity. Others have the experience and, rightly or wrongly, end up in the asylum.

One of the late Enlightenment philosophers suggested that divine law and truth should be evident everywhere, and accessible regardless of the sentient beings capacity, education, or cultural background. Divine law should be the same, and equally accessible to our most remote ancestors, and our descendants waiting for the sun to burn out. It should not matter if the sentient being is on Earth, or some other planet orbiting a star in a distant galaxy. Because this experience seems universal (after all, we only have Homo Sap's reports to go on), it may fulfill that philosopher's notion of divine law/revelation.

Anyone having the Awakening experience is unlikely to go on believing that the Universe is finite, and that God is merely Man writ large. In the West, the experience is usually not seen as the antidote to suffering. What sets Buddhism apart is that it directly confronts the problem of suffering, tries to understand its causes, and provide a prescription for conquering it. When Siddhartha had his Awakening experience after many difficult years of self-debasement, meditation, and experimenting with other Hindu-based approaches to the problem, he instantly understood the significance of the Experience to the the problem of suffering.

One who fully experiences the Awakening, rises above suffering and understands how illusory mundane reality is. While in the throes of the experience one may be terrified, but even then if they keep their wits about them (LOL, just try keeping your wits about you as your ego dissolves like the morning dew) they will realize that no suffering or harm can follow. Buddhism sets our a path that any determined person can follow to prepare for, and increase the chances of having the Awakening experience. Buddhist Masters have the experience on a frequent enough basis that they are an invaluable resource for the person seeking liberation through this experience.

Buddhism also utilizes the knowledge gained from the Awakening experience to reform lives. The person having the experience will be changed, and the deeper understanding of the nature of Ultimate Reality, so long as it's kept fresh, will result in a very different approach to living. We expect to see greater compassion, patience, and openness to differences. We expect tolerance, and clearness of vision unsullied by emotional or cultural biases. There is a secondary level of impact when those around the Awakened person are influenced by their changed attitudes and life style.

BTW ... just above Stuh is sounding pretty much like a Buddhist. We are not "put here", "here" and "we" are both illusory. Sentient beings are dream creatures that have no more, nor less, value/importance/significance than a grain of sand, or an errent quantum.

What do you mean by "dream creatures"?

I too believe the all is ultimately meaningless (in the sense of human meanings). I say this because meanings are OUR creations, not a priori properties of the universe (except insofar as we are expressions of the universe). But meanings are not given, they are constructed. We can choose to be depressed by this fact. Nietzsche proclaimed the death of God, meaning that we are alone, free and obliged to either suffer the insecurities of nihilism, living a baseless existence, or using our freedom to create our world, to design the meaningfulness of our lives. Tcis, I try not to take myself (e.g., my rank, social identity and personal value) too seriously, but I do take my life and the discovery of my true nature (in the Buddhist sense) very seriously. Because of our inherent freedom, life does have qualities of game. But we must remember that for a game to be a game it must have rules. The bottom line for me is that I (personally) and we (culturally) create those rules, not some superterrestial entity.

Q. What do you mean by "dream creatures"?

A. I mean that we, you and I, have no independent existence apart from the indivisible totality of Universe, itself but an illusory extension of Ultimate Reality. We are a ragged bit of dream stuff, but there is no "Dreamer" per se, certainly not a consciousness.

You might ask, why does the Great Void "dream". I don't know, nor do I think it is worth worrying much about. I've sought to understand what the world and existence is about. I've read widely and asked those who purported to know. I've spent many years following one academic discipline after another, and piled up an indecent number of degrees. I really would liked to have been able to "go along with" the Abrahamic faiths that seem to dominate the world. It would have been so much easier, and I'm sure than many of those that I've loved and respected would have been happier if I had ended up a "card-carrying" Christian of one sort or another. It just couldn't be if I were to maintain my integrity and honor.

After studying philosophy and religion, I found that most of them were rather dull reading and their exponents were more often than not zealots with their own ax to grind, or their own nest to feather. Everyone wanted me to jump on their particular cart. Buddhism was the least demanding that I forsake my own good sense, that I adopt some set of magical superstitions that were offensive to reason. Buddhism said to me, try sincerely these practices for a time and, if it doesn't work for you, then continue seeking after truth. I had the good fortune to be accepted under the guidance of a renowned Master at the Bush St. Zendo in San Francisco.

Before reaching the goal, the Awakening experience, I dropped out of the monastic life to become a Beatnik/Hippie. Like many young people, the contemplative life seemed too dull when American soldiers were going to Vietnam to die for a cause I didn't understand. How could I be cloistered when Jim Crow still ruled in our land? Awe shucks, I met my wife and we've been having our own little love-in for almost forty years now. I never forsook Buddhism, or Buddhist practice or meditation. Eventually, I did reach the goal. I've lived a long life, and I believe a productive life. I think that there is less suffering in the world because of how I've lived. Maybe not, but I sure have tried.

I have seen the elephant. Then I came home where everyone is color blind, and hurting from what seem like endless diseases. Most of the disease, the suffering, proceeds from ignorance, and from the illusion that the mundane world of multiplicity is REAL. Folks suffer because they are separated from ultimate Reality where time and space and appartness don't exist. People, in their mistaken idea that their own particular little life is should be the center of the universe suffer. They yearn to fill an emptiness than can not be filled. They want more than they have. They are afraid of losing what they have, even though it is dross. They are driven by emotions, and seldom can see beyond their hurt and pain. Oh, how I wish that each of them might have the awakening experience so that they to might KNOW (whatever that means) that suffering is only an extension of the dream world. Wake up and the dream tigers vanish for they only tear the flesh of dream creatures.

nice post JLN

asherman: I myself do not think it is so important to devote one's life to such things (and I also believe that our existence is no illusion) but I respect your devotion to something...but it seems to me that by your own system, you still have a bit more to learn. you speak as one who has completed his journey. you speak of humbleness, yet your posts read otherwise, and you refer to your opinions as facts. is this the way of the buddha?

Tcis
For me, I have to remember... all religion is nothing more than a tool to overcome the barrier of death. The human mind seems to need this tool... as it is aware of death, and seems incapabable of overcoming the prospect of death as it's natural end. So, the worlds religions... far varied and all from the same seed, try to convince us of something more, than what there seems to be in this realm... we want to believe... we need to believe. Sometimes we get lost in the realms these religions aspire to, that is ok. It happens with all religions and beliefs. For me... i try to do the next right thing in front of me... for i see no magic... i see no mystery... I know the magic and mystery is there... but can anyone realistically claim they know what it is?

I am convinced that this is why religions exist. But the human mind just needs an explanation...not necessarily to believe that we are more. For instance, atheism will fill the void for many people.

And I stopped fearing death long ago.



i see magic and mystery in many things. 1) in the explanation behind the existence of matter 2) in the explanation to why basic scientific laws such as gravity exist 3) in how certain phenomena such as consciousness exist.

dancing_rain



As stuh505 dancing_rain, ]

Stuh, I think it is important to note that one cannot concretely demonstrate his or her understanding of the truths of Buddhism--except to another matured Buddhist. Such understandings are profoundly personal and "subjective." What one CAN do is to objectify certain principles such that one is talking ABOUT Buddhism, as opposed to the vain attempt to SHOW it. This, as I see it, is what Asherman has been trying to do. After years of zen meditation he has achieved a degree of awakening. I think it was actually humble (i.e., objective) of him to acknowledge it. Most people I know who have awakened, to some degree, at least, lack the humility to simply say that they have had the awakening experience. I know that in my arrogance I would hesitate to make such a proclamation. After more than thirty years of meditation I am clearly not the same person I was when I began, pursuing power and escape from mundane reality. I am, frankly, afraid of being put down as arrogant and delusional for making any claims. Therefore my ego "fakes" humility in the pursuit of interpersonal safety. I was surprised by Asherman's admission. I believe him and I admire his courage and humility to simply state what is. I say this so that he doesn't have to. But that's up to him.

JLN, admitting that one has had an awakening in which they rise above the common thinking level of the rest of the world is far from humble...it is opposite of humble. Someone who was truly humble who had an awakening would not wantonly mention their superiority.

Stuh, I assure you that Buddhist "awakening" does not make a person superior, nor does it make him or her feel superior. I assure you that your comments in this regard are WAY off mark. It's more like someone saying simply that he has been cured of his migraine headaches. He would not be boasting at all. But he would be trying to help other victims of migraine come to a cure.