Turning The Ballot Box Against Republicans

Thank you for presenting evidence on Obama's presidency.

"People like me" has our facts to support us. It's also interesting to note that they are not aware of Trump's birther issue questioning Obama's place of birth for five years. Who in their right mind lies for five years when the facts have been presented, except a deranged individual like Trump.
From August of 2008: http://www.factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/16/donald-trump/fact-checking-donald-trumps-claim-hillary-clinton-/

Good work, old Europe. Only took forty minutes to totally destroy Baldimo's
credibility.

In the real world we deal with things called facts.

If you aren't smart enough to come up with an intelligent comment, you are better off not commenting rather than engaging in childish namecalling.

I realize that in a thread involving "liberals denying the existence of reality" making an intelligent contribution is a pretty low bar to clear. But being unable to clear a bar that low doesn't invalidate the advice.

I often find that Old Europe's posts have lots of good points in them.

However, I still find Baldimo to be completely credible.

You don't know what a fact is. You wrote,

Provide proof that I'm a bigot.

A lot of self labeled "think tanks" are releasing "data" suggesting that Klan members constitute 1/4 of the US population!

This is a flat out lie...

These think tanks, some claim to be liberal, yet they are associated with news publications!

Yes, these same liberal news publications that supported Hillary as long as she was relegated to the back sections of the paper.

While they gave Trump front page for his hateful speech!

Their idea is to keep people in fear so they will buy more papers.

1/4 of Texas or Alabama are not in the KKK!! (probably not even one tenth or less!)

They forget that democrats number nearly 2/3 of the electorate! (Though many dems do not vote.)

The KKK is a small minority of loser fringe racists that do not have any numbers worth even considering a threat!

Our news media is complicit in facilitating Trump's egregious rise to presidency and this should be a lesson that the news is FAKE and unworthy of even a dime.

There are very few news organizations worth reading these days.

Even the liberal ones (with the exception of a few) are corrupt and unworthy of much serious consideration...

You are my brother CI and not a bigot!

I am so glad I have gotten to know you and I have learned a lot over the years from your sensible and rational discourse.

All the best to you CI!

You deserve better people to be around you.

CNN is saying Steve Bannon is out. 'Bout damned time. That's what their oururces say. I f it'sztrue, it's the first thing Trump ha done this week that give us any hope that the country will survive. Don't let the slamming door hit you on the ass on your way out, Steve.

Good work, you found people I don't watch or support to make those claims, in 2015. So some had said it but everything you showed was from 2015 and not a concerted movement from the time he was elected as was the case with Bush and now Trump.

No credibility destroyed at all.

None of them is the likely case. If trans people want to serve, then they can serve but save their transition for after their service. The military is not the place to work out your gender confusion issues.

It's about time that schmuck has been removed.

In other words, you were wrong and you
re trying to find some way of weaseling out of having to admit it. You are however, strangely enough, right about Steve Bannon.

Thank you. It's strange how anyone can call me a bigot, because I have friends all around the world and across the US, having traveled to 84 countries. I love all people's, and they even include a couple of Russians. I have friends in Germany, England, France, Cuba, Singapore, Mexico, Africa and all across the US. When I visited Moscow, Sergei who used to participate on a2k spent the day with me, and gave me a tour of Moscow most visitors don't see. I know Hiroshi Robaina in Cuba. He owns one of the largest tobacco farm in Cuba. I also know Cesar who works at the Nacional Hotel in Havana, and many of the staff who work in the service industry. I know Bashir Samma who lived in Dar es Salaam in Tanzania. I'm fortunate because I have a travel buddy, Alexander Ogilvie, who has been a good friend for many years, and we have traveled all over Europe, South America and Asia. Alexander was born in Canada, but now lives in Loreto, Mexico, where he
owns Alexander Realty. How anyone can call me a bigot doesn't know me.

I wasn't actually wrong, here is what I wrote:

I didn't say no one had said it, I said I don't recall anyone saying it. So you can say I'm weaseling out of having to admit something but I'm actually not.

Debra Woods

PLEASE READ WHAT REALLY HAPPENED IN CHARLOTTESVILLE FROM AN EYEWITNESS! Warning its a long post.
If you still believe that both sides were doing equal damage, you don't understand anything about what was really happening on the ground.
Too many of us live in fear. Too many are still standing at the sidelines saying it doesn't affect them. This affects all of us. The people at the Nazi rallies this weekend are not "regular" people. They are not "innocent bystanders." They started the fights.

I rarely post politics or anything else on Facebook .... But let me be clear. I was acting as a medic in Charlottesville. "Both sides"-ing about it is absolutely unacceptable. Content note: I'm going to get quite graphic here, because while I understand that there's quite a range of political viewpoints among my Facebook friends, I want to get this point through to everyone whatever your politics.

In the run-up to that weekend, some local counterprotest organizers' families were forced to flee their homes because of violent threats. Some of them had "bodyguards" - friends escorting them everywhere they went that week, even to the grocery store, work, all the mundane places that people go in their normal lives.

On Friday night, a torch-wielding mob chanting Nazi and other racist slogans (e.g. "blood and soil," "Jews will not replace us"), some doing Nazi salutes, surrounded, screamed "White lives matter" and "anti-white" at, a small group of college student counterprotesters who had linked arms around a statue and had a banner. They then threw fuel at them, beat them with lit torches, pepper-sprayed them, and punched them (including pepper-spraying a girl in a wheelchair). The police mostly stood by until the nazis were gone. A medic who was wearing a kippah (a Jewish skullcap) was followed in the dark by one of the nazis, and took it off after that so as not to be targeted. A university librarian who joined the students to try to protect them has now had a stroke. At some point that evening, the torch-wielders also surrounded a black church while chanting racist slogans. All of this not only hurt people that night but set expectations for how the white nationalists would behave the next day.

On Saturday morning, a line of clergy, along with a gradually growing group of other protesters, showed up outside the nazi rally (given the iconography, including swastikas, the Black Sun, and fasces, and the chants, of involved groups, I don't have a problem using that word, don't let anyone fool you into thinking these were mainstream conservative groups that are being described hyperbolically), facing militia movement members who were carrying assault rifles. There was shouting back and forth, and a small early fistfight where a nazi punched a nearby counterprotester who spilled coffee on him. Nazis were screaming antisemitic things at rabbis in the clergy line, and chanting "blood and soil" in response to the clergy singing "This little light of mine." At one point, some clergy did a peaceful blockade of one of the park entrances, which was forcibly broken by an incoming white nationalist group with skulls painted on their shields. The heavy bidirectional fighting, though, mostly got going after a group of counterprotesters nonviolently blocked the way of an oncoming group of white nationalists, who broke through the blockade with clubs and heavy shields. Some people defended themselves as the white nationalists kept charging and swinging clubs. After that, there were fistfights and club-fights breaking out all around, nazis pepper-spraying and tear-gassing counterprotest crowds, plastic water bottles thrown in both directions. A nazi group that didn't know where the entrance to the park was added to the street fights. Some clergy ran to shield vulnerable people with their bodies, and those clergy were protected by antifa-associated counterprotesters - multiple clergy/theologians have said that they would have been "crushed" and maybe killed if antifa had not protected them. This went on for a long time. For most of this, the police stood around. Eventually, they cleared both sides out of the area.

The town's synagogue is a short distance from the park. Throughout the day, nazis paraded by it doing the Nazi salute and shouting antisemitic slurs. The police had refused to provide a guard to the synagogue for some reason, so it had hired its own armed guard. There were threats of burning it down coming in. It had to cancel a havdalah service at a congregant's house that evening out of fear of attack.

The march that was attacked with a car by James Fields was that afternoon. What street fighting had happened was long-since over by then. It was a happy march, it was not fighting anyone. The car attack came out of nowhere and the aftermath looked like a war zone. It hit the front of the march as the march was going around a corner, and many people weren't sure what had happened at first, people were screaming about a bomb. In addition to the woman who died, many people had serious injuries. A medic who was hit had to have emergency surgery to not lose her leg. A 13 year-old girl and her mom were among the injured. The street was covered in blood. The firefighters and paramedics were great. The police, on the other hand, rolled in an armored vehicle and threatened the crowd of survivors with a tear gas launcher. Police officers ordered the medics who were performing CPR on the woman who died to leave her and clear the area. They refused, and bystanders negotiated with the police to leave them alone.

There were several other incidents throughout the afternoon where white nationalists/nazis/whatever were menacing small groups of wandering counterprotesters with their cars, swerving toward them on the sidewalk like they were going to hit them, that kind of thing, including after the car attack. At one point my medic buddy and I were about 50 feet ahead of such a group and heard screeching car sounds and screams, and ran back, thinking for a second that there had been another terrorist attack and that this time we were the only medics on site, but fortunately it was just a scare - the driver then "rolled coal" (intentionally emitting a dark cloud of exhaust) at the people on the sidewalk before driving away. There was also an incident at some point where a young black man was badly beaten by white nationalists in a parking garage.

There is no "both sides" here. I mean, first of all, there is no moral both sides because antifascists and nazis aren't morally the same, period. Disrupting nazis isn't the same as being one, period. But there was also no "both sides" even beyond that. Mutual street fighting primarily kicked off by an attack from the opposing side, doesn't compare to mowing people down with a car, to threatening a synagogue and a black church, to stalking someone for being visibly Jewish, to being part of a Nazi-slogan-screaming mob that surrounds and attacks peaceful college kids and could have easily killed one of them if the fuel thrown on a couple of them had been lit by one of the many thrown or swung torches.

Don't let anyone fool you into thinking the Saturday rally was starting out just a rally like others, but with racist assholes. The people organizing counterprotests, whose families had to flee town, would probably take issue with that. The black church and the synagogue, the synagogue congregant who had to cancel a religious/cultural ceremony out of fear, and the ones who had to leave the building in groups out the back entrance to avoid attack, would probably take issue with that. The people who were physically attacked, on Friday night, by those in town for the Saturday rally, would probably take issue with that.

Don't elide the difference in the questions of whether hate speech should be criminalized, and how communities and their supporters should protect themselves when people who are already threatening to kill them roll into town to rally and then physically attack community members before their rally while the police don't stop it. Don't invoke the Civil Rights Movement to elide it, or tsk-tsk people who were on the ground in Cville. The Civil Rights Movement had its Deacons for Defense and Justice, and similar groups. Just as importantly, many of the leading lights of the Civil Rights Movement were murdered. If you think the only valid kind of activism in response to racist hate is martyrdom, you need to at least think through the implications of that belief.

I did not have a good weekend and I have no interest in hearing comments about how, despite everything I saw and everything I said here, you think this is a "both sides" thing. If you find my activism unacceptable you are welcome to unfriend me.

If you use a narrow meaning of the word bigot and only apply it towards race, then you pass your own test, but if you look at the general and proper meaning of the word bigot, you fit it perfectly and much more so than any of the right of center people here on a2k. I've lost count of the # of times you have referred to me or others on this site as bigots just because you didn't like what they said. You didn't bother to discuss the subject, you just pronounce them as bigots, which is a very bigoted thing to do.