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Should we increase the minimum wage?

 
 
Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 04:40 pm
where all minimum wage hikes comes from...

Note the actual statistics in the article below. Increasing the minimum wage doesn't cause increased unemployment.

au1929 wrote:
Economic Scene: A Weekly Column
from the September 15, 2003 edition

New efforts surface to raise minimum wage

By David R. Francis

Democratic Sen. Ted Kennedy hopes to put his Republican colleagues in the Senate in an awkward spot. Any day now he intends to attach a raise in the national minimum wage to a must-pass appropriations bill.
If it reaches the floor, senators will have to register their vote on a measure popular with a large majority of Americans - but opposed by groups representing restaurants, hotels, retail stores, health services, and other major employers of low-wage workers.
The question, as put by proponents, is: Are conservatives really compassionate or just saying they are?

The minimum wage has been frozen at $5.15 an hour since 1997. The Massachusetts senator's amendment would raise the hourly rate 75 cents six months after passage, and another 75 cents a year after that.

It may be affixed to an appropriations bill that contains a hike in pay for members of Congress. "That seems to be a likely candidate," says Jim Manley, press secretary to Mr. Kennedy.

Since 1997, Congress has raised its own pay five times for a total $21,000 increase. That's nearly twice what a minimum-wage employee makes working 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year. The minimum wage, in real terms, is worth 24.5 percent less than 24 years ago. And it's $4,300 below the official poverty line for a family of three.

"No one who works for a living should have to live in poverty," Kennedy says in a press release.

Chances for passage of a minimum-wage hike are considered slimmer in the House than the Senate. The Republican House leadership is opposed, says Mr. Manley. And it has more disciplinary might than the Senate leadership. But with an election next year, pressures for passage may build.

In the past, Republicans held a minimum-wage boost hostage to a tax cut or some other measure they sought.

But, as Manley notes, the Republicans "have shot their wad" as far as tax cuts go. President Bush says he will not seek further tax reductions.

With a minimum-wage hike blocked in Congress for the past several years, proponents have turned with considerable success to obtaining "living wage" requirements in states and municipalities. Since the

last federal increase in 1997, the number of states setting a higher minimum wage rose from six (plus the District of Columbia) to 12.

In addition, 110 local governments have living-wage provisions, most for their own workers plus employees of firms with contracts with the cities, towns, and counties. Some require employees to be paid about $10 an hour. Sixty university and colleges have also instituted living wages for workers.

The drive to get living-wage laws or ordinances will continue "no matter what the federal government does," says Jen Kern, director of the living wage resource center of ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now), the leading campaigner for living wages across the country.

Economists always note that nothing is free in economics. If wages are raised by law, the extra costs must be covered somehow. It could be that prices of goods and services rise, or that profits diminish, or that fewer minimum-wage workers are hired. Possibly, some cost could be covered by lower turnover of low-wage workers and by greater productivity.

The Employment Policies Institute (EPI) in Washington, sponsored by industries heavily using low-wage workers, has in the past argued that minimum-wage hikes destroy jobs.

But economists have had a difficult time detecting detrimental effects from moderate boosts in the minimum wage.

A study of all 50 states and D.C. over a period of 19 years could find "no statistically significant relationship between the value of the minimum wage and employment growth in industries reliant on low-wage workers."

The study, by economists at the Center for Urban Economic Development, University of Illinois, Chicago, was aimed at the Illinois General Assembly. This summer, the legislative body passed a law creating a state minimum wage of $5.50 next June and $6.50 a year later.

"There was intense opposition to the legislation by the hotel and restaurant industries," says Ron Baiman, one author of the economic-impact study.

But low-wage workers, packed into a committee room and chanting, "We can't survive on five-one-five," won the vote.

The EPI now maintains that if the minimum wage is raised, it attracts more skilled, better-educated workers to take over those now better-paying jobs.

"Low-skilled workers are pushed out of the market," says Craig Garthwait, EPI's director of research. Since single mothers and others moving out of welfare often take minimum-wage jobs, they may face fewer job openings. "All the success we have seen in welfare reform could disappear," Mr. Garthwait adds.

Kern counters that she sees no evidence of major job shifting.
0 Replies
 
Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 04:55 pm
And actually foxfyre, there is a lot of information out there on whether or not people are more likely to give to charity if they're earn more more.

The evidence clearly indicates no...

Read this thread...

http://www.able2know.com/forums/about22636.html

It's found in the article below.

http://huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfarecharity.htm
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 04:57 pm
It doesn't increase it either. I think Williams' approach would not only not take money from Citizen A who earned it to give it to Citizen B who may or may not deserve it, but would ensure that both Citizen A and Citizen B earned a living wage.

Nobody earning minimum wage has any business getting married or risking pregnancy and it is irresponsible to do that. The humane, compassionate way is to insist these kids stay in school, stay off drugs, get an education, learn how to speak proper English, learn a trade, and develop a work ethic. That will ensure they will never have to worry about being poor at least for long. And everybody benefits.

The thing that drives me crazy about the liberal Democrats is they never talk about that stuff. They just talk about how terrible is that somebody is poor with no consideration for how they got that way and how it is compassionate to 'lift them out of poverty' by guaranteeing them more money if they just show up for work.

I think it is more compassionate to install in people the realization that their destiny is in their hands and point them to the recipe to make it happen. And that includes the possibility of moving if there aren't enough good paying jobs where you are.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 06:10 pm
Wilso wrote:
BTW, the minimum wage in Australia is roughly double that of the US. I don't believe our cost of living is even close to being double of the US.


Your minimum wage is at $11.35 AUS where ours is $5.15 US. When you convert your AUS$ to US$ (@ 1.43 - todays exchange rate) you end up at your min wage being $7.89 US$. That's 153% of ours. Interestingly, our State Dept lists comparative Cost of Living estimates on their WWW site and lists the Cost of Living is Melborne as about 130% of the average cost of living in Washington DC.

Based on that there is a slight advantage to the higher minumum wage in Australia but it isn't all that much. (I have no idea how Melborne compares to the rest of Australia. Washington DC is one of the more expensive areas in the US.)
0 Replies
 
Anoxia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 06:20 pm
I'm hoping the US can develope more of an interest in education, since that is one huge asset to the working individual. I'm not necessarily supportive of mass scholarships, but more interested in the founding education to get people ready for college... education on the K-12 levels, where it is sorely needed.

People want to work a minimum wage job and live well, and I don't think that's realistic.

Economics is extremely complicated, and I look up to anyone who has seriously studied it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 06:31 pm
I googled the following table showing average cost of living index for all industrialized nations and a few Third World ones thrown in for good measure. Surprising the USA is near the bottom of both categories. Of course this is somewhat misleading as it costs a fraction to live in Salina KS compared to San Francisco CA or NYC.

But on average, based on Fishin's calculations, Australia's minimum wage adjusted to U.S. dollars is about 28% higher than ours while cost of living adjusted to U.S. dollars is about 14% higher than ours. It would be interesting to also compare the average household income and how much each country confiscates in taxes from its citizens.

Quote:
How much does it cost to live there? Unfortunately, it depends. What do you spend your money on? What sort of housing do you require? What will you have to pay in taxes? What currency will you be paid in? What one-time expenses will you have to incur?

See the assumptions for more information.

To use this table - a basket of goods and services that costs US$100 in the US would cost US$140 in Argentina

International Cost of Living Indices Country COL Index Country COL Index Country COL Index
Argentina 140 Australia 114 Austria 130
Bahrain 126 Belgium 127 Brazil 110
Canada 105 Chile 108 China 127
Colombia 83 Czech Rep 89 Denmark 133
Egypt 109 France 131 Germany 122
Greece 109 Hong Kong 143 Hungary 80
India 93 Indonesia 98 Ireland 123
Israel 132 Italy 128 Japan 182
Korea 117 Kuwait 122 Malaysia 101
Mexico 112 Netherlands 118 New Zealand 101
Nigeria 121 Philippines 88 Poland 100
Russia 123 Saudi Arabia 131 Singapore 126
South Africa 87 Spain 123 Switzerland 167
Taiwan 138 Thailand 105 U.A.E. 124
U.K. 140 U.S.A. 100 Venezuela 126
http://www.expatforum.com/Resources/icol.htm
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 09:02 pm
Centroles writes:
Quote:
It's easy to see why so many people choose to remain on welfare rather than go out and work. They have little to gain and almost everything to lose.

They would be doing a lot better and leading a better life if they go into crime. And that's why people opt to do so inspite of the risks involved.

If with hard work, people could actually live a half way decent life, maybe more would opt to do so.


If your theory was correct, Centroles, then there would have been more people on welfare and there would have been more crime when there was no minimum wage at all. There wasn't.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 09:48 pm
Fox,

That chart is wildly inaccurate. So much so that it seems to be a joke.

I've lived in 10 of those countries and the calculation isn't even close for any of them except perhaps one.

Incidentally, you should have known as much when they say that they don't even factor in housing (the basis for any of these calculations).
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:01 pm
That's Farmington, NM,Foxfyre. When Dys and Diane get settled into their new home in Albuquerque, how about we all do lunch some weekend? We would cover the political spectrum, and I bet you would love them. I do.

Oh, the topic. I'm not worried about where the money for a modest (150%?) hike in the minimum wage comes from. Wages are probably a very small part of the operating expense, to say nothing of the total costs of running, say a franchised fast food operation.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:04 pm
Well do you have a better chart then Craven. This one was apparently done by a consulting firm that helps companies relocate their employees around the world. But I sure don't know what it costs to live anywhere but here.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:16 pm
Fox,

That chart is done for Americans living abroad and maintaining their American lifestyles. This does not give a very accurate picture as it means a cost of an imported life.

Not taking housing into account is ludicrous as that, as I said, is the basis of any cost of living calculation.

There is another company (Mercer Consulting) with a much more accurate data set (still pretty shaky as that is the nature of the data) that is aimed at multinational companies that relocate employees. It's called the Mercer Cost of Living Survey. You can find some data here: http://www.finfacts.com/costofliving.htm

The data in the chart you posted is not just inaccurate but obviously wrong. Lemme give some examples.

It lists Brazil and Argentina as having a higher cost of living than the USA. That's not a matter of getting the precise rating in numbers a bit wrong but rather not having a clue what they are talking about. I could live more comfortably in Brazil than I do here in the states with 300 dollars a month.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:23 pm
I believe you Craven. What is there to do in Brazil while living on $300/month?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:24 pm
Roger writes
Quote:
That's Farmington, NM,Foxfyre. When Dys and Diane get settled into their new home in Albuquerque, how about we all do lunch some weekend? We would cover the political spectrum, and I bet you would love them. I do.

Oh, the topic. I'm not worried about where the money for a modest (150%?) hike in the minimum wage comes from. Wages are probably a very small part of the operating expense, to say nothing of the total costs of running, say a franchised fast food operation.


Cool Roger. I would love to do lunch sometime. I don't know if Dys will agree to it. I think I might irritate him a lot but I really am lovable. Smile

The cost of that 150% hike in the minimum wage, however, is not the whole story. When the wages go up, so do the employer's costs for SUTA, FUTA, FICA, Worker's Compensation and for many businesses, general liability insurance. And there is the issue of those who have worked for awhile at the 'new' minimum wage rate having to share that rate with the untrained, unexperienced newbies coming in. I know we have absorbed numerous increases in the minimum wage with minimal negative effect except that the poor are still with us. And putting additional burden on business has the real possibility of encouraging more jobs to be shipped out of the country.

I still personally think the answer is for a national emphasis on young people staying in school, learning to speak proper English, being able to read, write, do simple math, getting a diploma, learning a trade, learning proper grooming and professional appearance, staying off drugs, getting married before they have kids, getting any kind of a job to develop a work ethic and track record. According to Walter Williams, George Mason University, statistics show that this formula virtually eliminates poverty and when it exists, it is in single digits and temporary. In other words, these kids might train on minimum wage, but they won't stay there.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:27 pm
It would be like living in America while making a bit more than minimum wage.

Depending on the city it could be a poor existence but in some places it would be comfortable. The difference between São Paulo and, say, Salvador is about as big as the difference between the US and Brazil.

It would mean over 900 Reais and I personally think the cost of living between dollar and Real is 1:1 and the exchange rate is about 3:1.

Basic living would be easy but if you want any technology and imports they'd be way out of reach.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:36 pm
Here's an idea of prices:

Apartment prices vary drastically between streets, not to speak of city. But in São Paulo (the most expensive city) you can find several bedroom houses for about 600 Reais (200 dollars).

The most inflated housing costs would be a pensão (like a hostel) and you could get a room in an expensive one (like one right next to an airport that is aimed at pilots) for about 200 Reais a month.

A can of coke is about 1 Real.

A McDonalds meal is around 6 Reais (used to be around 5) but McDonalds is a middle-upper class thing there and for the same price you can get a steak meal.

A CD will cost between 15 and 20 Reais. But pirated CDs can be bought for 1 Real to 5 Reais (on Avenida Paulista about 5, in Centro 1).

Clothes are comparable on a 1:1 ratio.

The basics (food, housing) are really cheap. Anything imported is not.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:38 pm
I don't know of too many people in the US surviving on $300/month - except the homeless.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:39 pm
ci, we were talking about living on 300 dollars a month in Brazil. It would be like living on about 1000 dollars a month in America.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:40 pm
I think the average cost of housing in our county is about $500,000. A buyer would need to be making about $85,000 (my rough guess) to buy the average home.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:46 pm
You can buy a mansion on the beach in Brazil (in a remote area) for 40,000 dollars. Mr. Green

The population density there is a lot lower than here.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:48 pm
Well I think probably the median three-bedroom home in the USA would be less than half that CI, but that could be the median price in places like Palo Alto or San Francisco or NYC I would guess.

And that's really interesting Craven. We had friends who moved to Guatalajara when they retired in recent years thinking Mexico would be so much cheaper than the US. But in that area, the same standard of living was comparable in cost to what it was here.
0 Replies
 
 

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