14
   

Why in the world would Einstein suggest....

 
 
contrex
 
  3  
Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2015 02:56 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
the only thing you are really trashing is your own credibility on this site.

Layman does not have any credibility on this site.
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2015 09:44 pm
The following excerpts are from a recent paper published by two Italian physicists. This first quote is from the abstract:

Quote:
In this paper we show how GPS system demonstrates that the explanation of the Sagnac effect given by the commonly accepted version of Special Theory of Relativity is not correct and the use of an alternative formulation based on Inertial Transformations must be used. This implies the adoption of a new synchronization procedure, the renunciation of the relativity of simultaneity and a novel meaning of physical time.


Quote:
There are substantially three type of relativistic effects to be considered in GPS systems: a) the effect of source velocity (motion of the GPS satellites in their orbits) and gravitational potential upon satellite and receiver clocks; 3) the effect due to the receiver motion upon the signal reception time (Sagnac effect). The first two effects can be explained within the Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity (STR)...But the Sagnac effect has been proved to be in conflict with the STR. It has been shown that, in order to correctly explain this effect introducing the necessary correction to GPS, the postulate of isotropy of light velocity with respect the observer in every inertial frame must be abandoned and with it the assumption of absolute synchronization.


In this context, the problem caused for SR by the Sagnac effect more or less boils down to this: Experiments have proven that it takes longer for light to travel from San Francisco to New York than it does to travel from New York to San Francisco. Yet in special relativity neither the motion of the source or of the receiver of a light signal is supposed to make any difference. The one way speed of light is supposed to be the same.

Quote:
The interpretation of Sagnac effect is one of the most important facts in physics because of its deep consequences on its foundations ....So far all the attempts to explain the origin of this effect in the context of commonly accepted formulation of Theory of Relativity has failed for many reasons....The solution to this dilemma, as we’ll see, can be obtained only by adopting a radically different point of view namely the reformulation of STR without using the postulate of isotropy of light velocity and assuming the existence of a preferred inertial frame in which absolute simultaneity holds.


This paper makes frequent references to the global positioning system (GPS), which, as has been noted in this thread does NOT rely on SR as a theory of relative motion. Instead the GPS employs an AST (absolute simultaneity theory) in order to achieve the practical results it needs. But the problem of synchronizing clocks on earth is nothing new, and SR has always run into problems there, too:

Quote:
In 1980 the CCDS (Comité Consultatif pour la Définition de la Seconde) has stated the rules, internationally accepted, to perform clocks synchronization between different Earth locations. There are two options: the first one is to initially adjust time when the clocks are at the same point and then transport one clock very slowly to the destination point; the second option is to use an electromagnetic signal to be transmitted between the two clock locations...the codified procedure prescribes, as above discussed, the application of three correction factors:...The third correction, usually and incorrectly ascribed to earth rotation, cannot be derived, as discussed above, within the commonly accepted framework of Theory of Relativity and represent the consequence of Sagnac effect that, as we’ll see, can be correctly interpreted through the IT, as the anisotropy of light velocity in the rotating Earth frame.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=49&ved=0CEIQFjAIOCg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imeko.org%2Fpublications%2Ftc4-2014%2FIMEKO-TC4-2014-361.pdf&ei=7bIYVdP_FYbbsAScz4C4Aw&usg=AFQjCNEqUoqukWwAI8Th31iJiq9PLWbyWQ&sig2=WaowGnvvEtysQSTsCH8XVQ

Quote:
Contrex said: Layman does not have any credibility on this site.

Contrex, very early in this thread you made some announcements designed to assert (but certainly not demonstrate) your superior knowledge and acumen regarding special relativity. Since you have now chosen to resurface in this thread, do you care to demonstrate (1) that you even understand what is being said by these authors, and, if so, (2) exactly why they are wrong, if you claim they are?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 01:28 am
Here is one (of many) discussions of the fact that special relativity creates avoidable conflicts with QM, while also providing a model that is founded upon the notion that an objective reality does in fact exist. As this russian physicist notes, in his paper: "Heisenberg spoke along the same line:”… Reality is in the observation, not in the electron …” [6]. In fact, it was an unprecedented case when realism, as a philosophical basis, was consciously rejected by a physical theory." Personally, I disagree. The first time was with the Minkowski interpretation of SR. Einstein later expressed regret that his then-current positivism (which he then called "nonsense") when formulating SR was then used to justify the Copenhagen interpretation of QM.

Quote:
Toward a real synthesis of quantum and relativity theories: experimental evidence for absolute simultaneity

Journal ofPhysics:ConferenceSeries 442 (2013) 012035

From the abstract: Our observations directly contradict the no-aether Einstein's interpretation of special relativity together with the Minkowski's model of spacetime. However they are consistent with the aether-related Lorentz-Poincare's interpretation that allows absolute simultaneity. We thus strongly challenge the fundamental status of Lorentz invariance and hence break the basic argument against de Broglie-Bohm realistic quantum theory. We argue that both de Broglie-Bohm and Lorentz-Poincare theories are capable of providing a real synthesis of quantum and relativity theories

From the paper:

The interpretation of the special relativity is not “a matter of taste” but leads to significant physical consequences....Einstein’s relativity is experimentally-distinguishable from the Lorentz-Poincare’s relativity... We have thus got two quantum theories, standard QM and the pilot-wave theory, and both are equally successful in prediction of experimental observations...

However, their principle difference is that the former rests on mysticism and indeterminism while the latter rests on realism and determinism which is the basis of all current physical theories. As a result, the former encounters serious conceptual problems and can hardly be unified with relativity theory. Conversely, the latter naturally avoids conceptual problems and can easily be unified with relativity or, more precisely, with the Lorentz-Poincare’s version of this theory. In this situation, the choice in favour of one of these theories seems self-evident though it clearly will take some courage to overcome the existing prejudices about quantum theory.


http://iopscience.iop.org/1742-6596/442/1/012035

Of course this merely echoes John S. Bell's observations, made decades ago:

Quote:
I would say that the cheapest resolution is something like going back to relativity as it was before Einstein, when people like Lorentz and Poincare´ thought that there was an aether—a preferred frame of reference—but that our measuring instruments were distorted by motion in such a way that we could not detect motion through the aether....[This] pre-Einstein position of Lorentz and Poincare´, Larmor and Fitzgerald, was perfectly coherent, and is not inconsistent with relativity theory.


The Ghost in the Atom, interview with J. S. Bell, edited by P. C. W. Davies
and J. R. Brown (Cambridge U.P., Cambridge, 1986), Chap. 3.

The first autho notes that: "...it clearly will take some courage to overcome the existing prejudices about quantum theory," but it's strange that he doesn't even mention the same prejudices about relativity theory itself.

Any comments from the "special relativity in unquestionably true" crew here?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 05:01 am
Want proof that absolute simultaneity actually exists and is not merely a matter of choice or convention? Franco Selleri says he has 8 such proofs, how's that?

Quote:
Franco Selleri (Bologna, Italy, October 9, 1936 - November, 20, 2013) was an Italian theoretical physicist and professor at the Università degli Studi di Bari "Aldo Moro". He was a member of the New York Academy of Sciences and the Fondation Louis de Broglie, and served on the Board of Directors of the Italian Physical Society. He had numerous visiting professorships and fellowships, including CERN, Saclay, University of Nebraska, Cornell University, and Dubna. He was well known for his analysis of the foundations of relativity theory and quantum mechanics. During his scientific career, he published more than 200 papers in particle physics, quantum theory, relativity and history and philosophy of physics. He was the author of numerous books and editor of numerous conference proceedings on topics relating to the foundations of physics. He wrote "Weak Relativity: The Physics of Space and Time Without Paradoxes," published in 2009.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Selleri

Quote:
Eight Proofs of Absolute Simultaneity by Franco Selleri (2010)

The conviction that relativistic simultaneity has a conventional nature is shared by many authors, but it will be shown that simultaneity exists in the physical reality and therefore cannot be conventional....Several phenomena, in particular those taking place in accelerating frames (Sagnac effect, and all that), converge in a strong indication of e 1 = 0. This implies absolute simultaneity and a new type of space and time transformations, which we call “inertial”. We give eight proofs of absolute simultaneity, deduced from essentially independent normally accepted premises....

In the previous sections we saw that several paradoxes of relativity melt away rather easily if one adopts an optimistic philosophy about the possibility to understand nature correctly. Furthermore, this "optimistic" philosophy is not anymore a free choice, but should have become an open scientific possibility as a consequence of the independent proofs of absolute simultaneity.


http://worldnpa.org/eight-proofs-of-absolute-simultaneity/

Read the article if you don't believe it, eh?
parados
 
  3  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 07:31 am
@layman,
I'll be glad to pay when you provide your indisputable evidence. Simply claiming you won still isn't going to work.
fresco
 
  5  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 07:53 am
@layman,
With respect to your last reference published on the NPA website
Quote:
The Natural Philosophy Alliance (NPA) is an organization that advocates the position that some ideas thought well-settled in contemporary science (particularly physics and cosmology) are fundamentally flawed. At its peak, the NPA had hundreds of members who worked to discredit such ideas as general and special relativity, quantum theory, the Big Bang, and plate tectonics. However, as a result of internal dissension and fragmentation, it is now a much smaller organization.
NPA was founded in 1994 by John E. Chappell Jr., a historian and anti-relativity activist. Since the beginning of 2014, the organization has been engaged in a dispute with former members who left the group due to disagreements over the NPA's direction, database of articles, and finances. This group that left has re-banded as the John Chappell Natural Philosophy Society, seen below. Both sides have posted their versions of the nature and details of the dispute on competing websites. According to Chappell faction, prior to the departure of most members due to the dispute, the NPA counted 850 people as members,132 of whom paid dues.However, the current NPA accuses this group of having listed people as "members" against their will, and has vowed to discontinue this practice.
NPA hosted a database, now hosted on the web site World Science Database, see below. NPA also holds yearly conferences with published proceedings, which provide a forum for those seeking wider distribution and acceptance for ideas excluded from mainstream scientific conferences.
Journalist Margaret Wertheim, herself an NPA member and friend and associate of one of its founding members (Jim Carter, inventor of the fringe theory of circlons), speculated in a 2012 essay that much of the interest in this area is a response to the heavy mathematical content and abstract ideas underlying conventional scientific theories, which, she says, makes them inaccessible to the general public. She compares NPA with the revolt of Martin Luther against the Catholic church. However, journalist John Horgan, a friend of Wertheim's, reported that "When [Wertheim] attended an NPA meeting... it reminded her of an experiment in which three schizophrenic patients, each of whom believed he was Christ, were introduced to each other... Each concluded that the others were crazy. Watching presenters at the NPA meeting, Wertheim comments, was like 'watching thirty Jesus Christs.'”
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 10:40 am
@parados,
Quote:
I'll be glad to pay when you provide your indisputable evidence. Simply claiming you won still isn't going to work.


Great! You know the outcome of the Hafele-Keating experiments just as well as I do. They did NOT result in each clock running slower than the other. You know that, and that was the bet. Or are you claiming otherwise?
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 10:43 am
@fresco,
Quote:
With respect to your last reference published on the NPA website


Heh. Is this supposed to in any way be relevant to who Franco Selleri is, or the validity of the proofs he presents in his paper?
fresco
 
  4  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 11:00 am
@layman,
No. Its to show you that trawling round the maverick websites with an axe to grind can generate pages of verbiage. You might as well be trawling round theology websites for arguments about "non-existence of The Trinity". It's a never ending game . Neither the SR dissenters nor the Trinity dissenters will have the slightest effect on the history of mainstream paradigms.
But recent posts by you elsewhere indicate that you may not be capable of understanding such a point.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 11:08 am
@fresco,
Just as I thought. You don't have a word to say about the substance of Selleri's paper and are just attempting to somehow discredit his paper without even reading or understanding it. Typical fallacious "argumentation" from your ilk, sho nuff. You have shown time and again that you don't even understand the nature of the issues being raised.
fresco
 
  3  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 11:18 am
@layman,
...said the student who couldn't get to grips with Euclidean geometry !

Most of us are not interested in dissent about SR. Don't you get it ? Its paradigmatic history. Nothing will change Einstein's impact on physics and his opening of the door for other counter-intuitive ideas irrespective of the status of later refinements.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 11:36 am
It seems that many have misinterpreted the import of Bell's theorem, eh?:

Quote:
Many workers assert that Bell’s theorem refutes the possibility suggested by Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen (EPR) of supplementing ordinary quantum theory with “hidden” variables that might restore determinism and/or some notion of an observer independent reality. But Bell himself interpreted the theorem very differently—as establishing an “essential conflict” between the well-tested empirical predictions of quantum theory and relativistic local causality....

In Bell’s recapitulation of the argument, for EPR this “showed that [Bohr, Heisenberg, and Jordan] had been hasty in dismissing the reality of the microscopic world....the usual quantum formalism cannot be the whole story.”...

According to Bell, we must therefore accept the real existence of faster-than-light causation and hence an apparent conflict with the requirements of special relativity: “For me then this is the real problem with quantum theory: the apparently essential conflict between any sharp formulation and fundamental relativity. That is to say, we have an apparent incompatibility, at the deepest level, between the two fundamental pillars of contemporary theory….”

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stat.physik.uni-potsdam.de%2F~pikovsky%2Fteaching%2Fstud_seminar%2FBell_local_causality.pdf&ei=R4gZVfrYDImwggSiiIGYBQ&usg=AFQjCNH30O5CguEd6ViBEI113Os8MQ9cIg&sig2=DIbnwNwz3AEjCs8v7wbTzg&bvm=bv.89381419,d.eXY

But, as the Russian physicist I just cited noted, there is no need to "reconcile" QM with a given theory of relative motion. The obvious solution is to "harmonize" (not reconcile) the two by eliminating the problematic theory (SR) which creates the unnecessary conflicts and adopt an AST which is internally consistent, capable of accurate predictive power, and which is consistent with all known experiments.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 11:52 am
@fresco,
Quote:
..Nothing will change Einstein's impact on physics..


You're ever the omniscient seer of the future, eh, Fresco? Typical, sho nuff.

Every day, more and more physicists, like John Stuart Bell, 30 years ago, and countless others before him, are starting to look at the source of the dogma that creates problems, and away from the attempt to "reconcile" the irreconcilable.

Quote:
Most of us are not interested in dissent about SR.


Most here are not interested in SR, period, that's clear. Well except that some may feel obligated to make feeble attempts to "defend" what they've been told, without even knowing why it's supposedly defensible.
fresco
 
  3  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 12:04 pm
@layman,
Nah ! The truth is that you feel obligated to justify your idiosyncratic educational history. SR dissent is just a convenient vehicle for you in that respect. The fact that you have nothing original to say either here or elsewhere underscores the point. (I don't count parochial stories about your supposed encounters with the police etc as intellectually original.)
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 12:04 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Every day, more and more physicists, like John Stuart Bell, 30 years ago,...


Such as, on a more contemporary basis, nobel-prize winning physicist, George Smoot.

Quote:
The theory of special relativity is based on the principle that there are no preferred reference frames. In other words, the whole of Einstein's theory rests on the assumption that physics works the same irrespective of what speed and direction you have. So the fact that there is a frame of reference in which there is no motion through the CMB would appear to violate special relativity!
However, the crucial assumption of Einstein's theory is not that there are no special frames, but that there are no special frames where the laws of physics are different. There clearly is a frame where the CMB is at rest, and so this is, in some sense, the rest frame of the Universe. But for doing any physics experiment, any other frame is as good as this one. So the only difference is that in the CMB rest frame you measure no velocity with respect to the CMB photons, but that does not imply any fundamental difference in the laws of physics.


http://www.astro.ubc.ca/people/scott/faq_basic.html

Quote:
George Fitzgerald Smoot III (born February 20, 1945) is an American astrophysicist, cosmologist, Nobel laureate, and one of two contestants to win the US$1 million prize on Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader?. He won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 2006 for his work on the Cosmic Background Explorer with John C. Mather...According to the Nobel Prize committee, "the COBE project can also be regarded as the starting point for cosmology as a precision science." Currently Smoot is a professor of physics at the University of California, Berkeley, senior scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and since 2010, a professor of physics at the Paris Diderot University, France. In 2003, he was awarded the Einstein Medal and the Oersted Medal in 2009.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Smoot

Here's a quote directly from Smoot's own website (the quote above was from a fellow Berkeley professor of physics):

Quote:
We attribute the dipole anisotropy to the motion of the Earth and Solar System relative to the universal CMB radiation field and thus the distant matter in the Universe. This would seem to violate the postulates of Galilean and Special Relativity but there is a preferred frame in which the expansion of the Universe looks most simple.


http://aether.lbl.gov/www/projects/u2/

Poor "idiosyncratic" Smoot, eh, Fresco? You just continue to display your ignorance, I'm afraid.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 03:34 pm
@contrex,
This coming from the guy who made my point for me when he thought he was somehow refuting it, eh? Remember saying this, Contrex?

Quote:
If the railway company wants to move a 500 ton train to Chicago from (say) New York, they can do the math and see how much energy they need to use to do this, but if they need to keep the train still and move the world around so that Chicago comes to the train, and New York recedes into the distance, surely, the world being so big and heavy, they'd need a much more powerful locomotive, and the ticket would have to be much more expensive.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 31 Mar, 2015 06:15 am
@layman,
This does not contradict SR in any way. It's importantvto try and understand what you post before posting it.

You are however correct that the EPR experiments / Bell inequalities experiments DO contradict SR. Quantum mechanics appears incompatible with relativity, which is a problem.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 31 Mar, 2015 07:13 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
This does not contradict SR in any way. It's importantvto try and understand what you post before posting it.


Did you even read the first post to this thread, Ollie?

The claim has been made, over and over again, that there is simply no way to know if the train is moving, or the tracks, once it reaches a uniform speed. Contrex just gave one way to tell.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 31 Mar, 2015 07:25 am
@layman,
Did you try and understand what I've been saying on this thread, lay, or did you ignore it?

The train and the landscape are ILLUSTRATIONS FOR KIDS of the principle of GALILEAN relativity, they are not something "Einstein pretended". You keep misunderstanding things for the fun of it.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 31 Mar, 2015 07:28 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
the principle of GALILEAN relativity


Can you explain what that is, and what it means for SR?

 

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