14
   

Why in the world would Einstein suggest....

 
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 10:14 pm
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
...in fact, there is no such thing as being really at rest or really moving, except with respect to a specified object.


Brandon, for SR to work out, every inertial observer must assert that he is at rest and that anything moving relative to him is "moving." So it's not really a matter, in practice, of SR taking an "agnostic" view about motion. Einstein elaborates on this requirement in the example of the guy on the train which he uses to assert that "simultaneity is relative."

The passenger doesn't say that he "doesn't know" if he is moving, he says he is NOT moving. If he says he is moving (relative to the earth), and that the earth is stationary (again, relative to him--not "absolutely"), then the whole theory of SR falls apart.

That's the point I was addressing.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 10:19 pm
@oralloy,
Hmm, interesting. What "reality" have I "denied" in your view? Anything specific?
Quote:
all attempts to explain reality to you an exercise in futility.


I haven't seen many attempts here by anyone to "explain" anything. I have seen a lot of assertions that are thrown out as "indisputable fact," but little else. At this point, that would include what you just said in your post. Care to actually "explain?"
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 12:43 am
@dalehileman,
The same physicist I quoted before went on, in that same article, to say:

Quote:
He [being the terrestrial, stay-at-home twin] knows that, being inertial, he is entitled to say that all moving clocks run slowly, and that includes Stella's....What about Stella? If she could claim to have been inertial for the whole trip, then she would maintain, correctly, that Terence should be younger than herself (because moving clocks run slowly in an inertial frame!), and there would then be a real problem.


Source: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/movingClocks.html

Don't a couple of questions immediately arise in your mind? For example:

1.Why is anyone "entitled" to say he is stationary, simply because he is a moving at a uniform speed?

2. Even more puzzling is how Stella could be deemed to "correctly" claim that the other guy is younger (if she had maintained an inertial state the whole time)? I mean, she can make that "claim" all she wants, even if she is mistaken, but how can a mistake be "correct?"

Stella was inertial for the vast majority of the duration, yet they were still moving, relative to each other during that period. Therefore they can't BOTH be "at rest" during those periods. So why is each "entitled" to claim the other's clock is slower, while the their clock is faster? Acceleration or not, they are not moving the same speed (i.e., they are not is the SAME inertial frame). Therefore one must be wrong when they claim that they are not moving.

There is nothing "paradoxical" or inherently "contradictiory" about each "claiming" they are at rest. People often make mistaken assumptions and claims. But there is an inherent contradiction is saying each is also "correct" in their respective assertions, isn't there?

Doesn't this very guy acknowledge that, when he says: "...she would maintain, correctly, that Terence should be younger than herself (because moving clocks run slowly in an inertial frame!), and there would then be a real problem." A real problem, yes.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 01:16 am
Isn't the whole of relativity, special and general, kind of an extreme idiotic theory? I haven't seen any applications needing this garbish!
Einstein was just a village idiot pushed forward as a saint, to promote a ridiculous theory! So many people fall for this crap.

barmpot
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 01:33 am
Mr. Green
Yay ! The Gang's all here !
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 02:00 am
@Quehoniaomath,
Quote:
Einstein was just a village idiot pushed forward as a saint, to promote a ridiculous theory! So many people fall for this crap.


Q, I'm sorry to say that I don't find such hyperbolic bluster and unsupported ad hominem attacks to be the least bit persuasive.

Persuasion aside, I don't find such "discussion" to be of any real interest. Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of that around here.
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 02:05 am
@layman,
You'll have to pardon Que. He's one of our own village idiots. Perfectly Ignore-worthy.
0 Replies
 
barmpot
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 02:57 am
@Quehoniaomath,
Layman wrote
Quote:
Q, I'm sorry to say that I don't find such hyperbolic bluster and unsupported ad hominem attacks to be the least bit persuasive.

Laughing
You're not going to let him get away with that are you ?
Grab his satnav and beat him over the head with it !
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 03:42 am
@layman,
Quote:
Q, I'm sorry to say that I don't find such hyperbolic bluster and unsupported ad hominem attacks to be the least bit persuasive.

Persuasion aside, I don't find such "discussion" to be of any real interest. Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of that around here.


Well, First of all I am not attacking you or other persons here.
So it isn'really ad Ad Hominem towards people here.
I am saying that Einstein's theory are a huge hoax and Einstein IS a thief and a plagiarist and a liar. So, please spare me your comments. In my eyes he is a village idiot of the highest order and his theories are huge hoaxes!
Bending space? Curvature of space? **** off! You are being mind fucked by an idiotic system!
So, yes, Einstein was an enormous village idiot! It is hilarious to see people adoring this idiot! And why care what I say about this village idiot? He can't hear me!
The dude is dead meat mate!!!
But it looks like you are accusing me of blasphemie!? How dare I to criticize your High Priest and your stupid religion?




barmpot
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 03:50 am
@Quehoniaomath,
I love it !

I'll give 5 to 4 he'll throw in the towel !
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 04:01 am
@barmpot,
Quote:
I love it !

I'll give 5 to 4 he'll throw in the towel !


you think this is a contest?
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 04:13 am
@Quehoniaomath,
Sure. Its...
The A2K Lonely Drivel Preachers Contest 2015. (Round 1)
(Your previous performance meant you skipped the qualifiers)
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 04:16 am
@Quehoniaomath,
Quote:
I am saying that Einstein's theory are a huge hoax and Einstein IS a thief and a plagiarist and a liar.


Heh. You appear have some highly charged emotions when it comes to Al, Q. Anyone else you hate that you want to rant about, while you're here?
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 04:22 am
@Quehoniaomath,
It's possible that Al plagiarized a few things, but I always liked the guy. He had lot of intellectual integrity, even if he did steal a couple things, here and there.

I've heard that he beat his wife, but I've never investigated the alleged details.

I look at it this way: Who hasn't? She probably deserved it, ya know?
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 04:42 am
@layman,
Quote:
It's possible that Al plagiarized a few things, but I always liked the guy. He had lot of intellectual integrity, even if he did steal a couple things, here and there.

I've heard that he beat his wife, but I've never investigated the alleged details.

I look at it this way: Who hasn't? She probably deserved it, ya know?


You have no clue at all!
Plagiarized a few things? yeah right!
Liked the guy? why? He is as stupid and as ugly as one can get!
Intellectual integrity>??????????????????????? He plagiarized but has
intellectual integrity??????????????You are funny indeed!!!
Who hasn't? Beat his wife? Man o man o man!

The man was stupid and ugly and his theory is a hoax!
Doesn't work. will never work!

His theories has stalled physics for years!!!!

fresco
 
  3  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 08:15 am
@Quehoniaomath,
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah99/davidrs1/satan_zpszlrfuv3g.jpg
Quehoniaomath
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 09:00 am
@fresco,
Just an Ad Hominem, nothing of any substance.

But why do you have these troubles when U attack this idiotic religion?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 03:41 pm
@barmpot,
Quote:
Of the two, only Einstein proposed getting rid of "the aether" and that the speed of light was a constant c for all observers. That was the theoretical leap from which all else followed. The fact that he agreed with some of Lorentz;s mathematics does not mean he agreed with Lorentz's axioms anymore than his partial use of Newtonian mechanics meant he agreed with those axioms,


For the most part I agree with what you've said here (although both Lorentz and Al agreed that all inertial observers would measure the speed of light to be constant).

Are you under the impression that Einstein was "right" and that Lorentz was "wrong," with respect to issue of relative motion? You sound like you are under that impression.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 04:10 pm
@layman,
I said:
Quote:

Doesn't this very guy acknowledge that, when he says: "...she would maintain, correctly, that Terence should be younger than herself (because moving clocks run slowly in an inertial frame!), and there would then be a real problem." A real problem, yes.


It is probably unfitting that I refer to Don Koks as "this guy." Don Koks is a respected physicist who has, among other publications, written a textbook called "Explorations in Mathematical Physics" (Springer, 2006).

And, again, he (and virtually every other physicist) acknowledges that there is a "real problem" with any suggestion that each clock actually runs slower than the other.

Not knowing exactly which one it is that's moving at any given time is irrelevant: It certainly would not mean that we "can't say" if either is moving if we don't know which one it is.

Regardless of who is, or is not, aware of which one it is that's moving, at least one of two relatively moving parties must be moving. In the twin paradox example, it is the travelleing twin's clock which "really" slows down.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 04:33 pm
@layman,
Suppose you flip a coin and tell me to "call it."

I respond by first noting that its "either heads or tails."

That comment is 100% correct, whether or not I thereafter accurately "call" the coin flip.

Likewise, if you ask me who it is, as between A and B who are in motion relative to each other, that's moving faster, I would be 100% accurate to say "It's either A or B."
 

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