6
   

Shared Custody. Do fathers matter in a divorce?

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 04:38 am
@izzythepush,
lol
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 06:07 am
@maxdancona,
Max, if the divorce is inevitable, it is important that even eight year olds have wishes that get recognized if not fulfilled. While I agree that divorce maybe too easy to accomplish, children need to have their input at least considered.

Its no fault of 'feminism' that divorce is rising. You did not divorce over feminism. You divorced because your wife no longer felt like your marriage was working at least for herself. She fell out of love. Its no one's fault. Andnow you need to deal with that and how it impacts your children. Now is not the time for fighting and keeping things from being finalized because being in flux without a settling point isn't good for kids.

Children should not be considered a cause of, or a prize in, or the reason to stop divorce proceedings. They are party to, not property of your marriage and divorce.
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 06:09 am
@izzythepush,
Actually thats a pretty nasty cut!
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  4  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 06:13 am
@maxdancona,
Max - no one is like oralliar. Least of all Izzy. There's no explaining or defending it. Just apologize and get it over with.

This thread has been good for bunch of reasons. Its been informative and civil and we've worked at putting differences behind us.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 06:33 am
@bobsal u1553115,
What is to be gained by these personal vendettas?

I take each thread as it comes. When I agree with Oralloy I will say so, when I disagree with him I will state my objection to his point of view as forcefully as appropriate. Same with Izzy, when I agree with him I will say so, when we disagree I will make my case. With either of them I can make my case on the issue at hand without attacking anyone personally.

I don't see the need for these personal attacks. I think that applies to both Oralloy and Izzy.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 08:45 am
@maxdancona,
What a load of old bollocks. You get about as personal as it's possible to be, don't think anyone's buying your passive aggressive schtick.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 09:13 am
@Ticomaya,
Great insights, thanks. From the link I posted earlier and some other reading I've been doing, it seems like:
- 90% of cases don't go to litigation.
- Of those that do, there is a maternal preference especially with older judges.
- The progress in father's rights and joint custody has pretty much followed the progress in women's rights, going from an automatic assumption that the mother is best in the 50's, progressing to more joint custody arrangements in the 70's and 80's and to legal assumptions of equality in many states in the 00's.
- There is a group of organizations, medical, psychiatric, women's rights that strongly favor single custody. Some of these say the child is more stable in one household with a stable environment, some say the parents use the children to fight against each other (parent alienation syndrome), some say domestic abusers use the courts to keep continued access to their abused partners. I've actually read a lot about the last item and it is a pretty ugly tactic. The reality facing a woman running from a domestic violence situation is that she may find herself destitute trying to defend against a vindictive ex taking her to court and with no means to defend herself. This link concerns a regular, long time A2K contributor: http://www.gofundme.com/Her-Safe-Place

My take is that the world seems to be moving pretty quickly towards equality in parenting in cases of no fault divorce. I personally think the advancement in equal rights for women has driven the advancement in father's rights. Generation X judges and legislatures (<50 years old) have grown up believing in more equal rights and it shows up more in the courts and legislatures but old beliefs die hard.

As for "what is best for the children", I believe that is important but I also think that is not the sole consideration. Parents count too. If in order for the children to gain 1% more stability a father or mother must lose all contact then I disagree. Of course you can argue that the kids don't deserve to give up anything because it isn't their fault, but that is true of just about every bad thing that happens to a family. If the kids can give a little for a better outcome for the whole family, we need to consider that option and I think that is why some of these groups pushing for sole custody are losing ground.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 09:25 am
@engineer,
Quote:
There is a group of organizations, medical, psychiatric, women's rights that strongly favor single custody.


There is a larger group of medical and psychiatric organizations that strongly favor joint custody in most cases. Obviously in cases of domestic violence, single custody should (and generally would) be considered best (for the both child and the victim of violence).

Fathers and mothers should be considered equals in the vast majority of cases.

Quote:
Children in joint custody arrangements had less behavior and emotional problems, had higher self-esteem, better family relations and school performance than children in sole custody arrangements. And these children were as well-adjusted as intact family children on the same measures, said Bauserman, "probably because joint custody provides the child with an opportunity to have ongoing contact with both parents."

These findings indicate that children do not actually need to be in a joint physical custody to show better adjustment but just need to spend substantial time with both parents, especially with their fathers, said Bauserman. Also, joint custody couples reported less conflict, possibly because both parents could participate in their children's lives equally and not spend the time arguing over childcare decisions. Unfortunately a perception exists that joint custody is more harmful because it exposes children to ongoing parental conflict. In fact, the studies in this review found that sole-custody parents reported higher levels of conflict.


http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/03/custody.aspx
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 09:47 am
@maxdancona,
Whatever anyone says about you (and maybe some things you said that are disagreeable) --- I do applaude that you kept your daughter out of the divorce discussions - that it appears you put aside anything you have against your former wife for the sake of your daughter.

If anything you appear you be a thoughtful parent and caring father. I do wish you, your ex-wife and most of all your daughter the best during a hard time. And hope you continue to work together for your daughter.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 09:50 am
@Linkat,
Thank you Linkat.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 08:03 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Thank you Finn, you do a good thing.

I'm not Finn.

Quote:
My lawyer's philosophy was that divorce should be civil. I chose him for this reason and I really appreciated his calm when my wife's lawyer started to get legally aggressive.

Many people choose their attorney because they want a "bulldog" lawyer. I don't find that approach to be the most productive, or advantageous, for my clients. I tend to take a more flexible approach; I try to be civil, but aggressive when appropriate.

Quote:
I appreciated having a lawyer who supported this goal but also knew where to draw the line.

He sounds like he has a good approach to me.

Quote:
In Massachusetts we have pretrial memos (I don't know what other states do). I found them interesting. They are pretty good indications of what each side plans to do as they can be used to put pressure on the other side during negotiation.

We have those as well, here in AZ.
Ticomaya
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 08:08 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:
... and we've worked at putting differences behind us.

Some have worked harder than others.

I don't know the history of the squabbles between the participants in this thread, but it's clear from this threat -- and this thread alone -- that max is not stooping to personal invective, but others are.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 09:19 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Quote:
You divorced because your wife no longer felt like your marriage was working at least for herself. She fell out of love. Its no one's fault. Andnow you need to deal with that and how it impacts your children. Now is not the time for fighting and keeping things from being finalized because being in flux without a settling point isn't good for kids.


This little tale has nothing to do with what happened in my marriage (maybe you based this on your own personal experience). Clearly your crystal ball isn't working very well.

I don't know why you think it is appropriate to make things up about other people's life story when you have no way of knowing what really happened.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 09:23 pm
@Ticomaya,
I hope it doesn't bother you I called you Finn. You are both conservatives that I enjoy talking to, maybe that is why I confused you with him.
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 09:36 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I hope it doesn't bother you I called you Finn.

Not a bit.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 09:58 pm
I give you a kids perspective here. When my daughter was young, her best friend was in a joint custody situation. It was pure hell for the girl. 3 days with the mother, 4 days with the father - then 4 days with mom, 3 days with dad and so on. On one side she had a regular day-t0-day routine: got up at the same time, had food at the same time and went to bed at the same time. With the other parent it was "whatever you want honey". Junk food, TV until midnight etc. etc. Parents started bickering because of this and then when one parent had a new partner, all bets were off.

The new partner resented the kid, especially when weekend plans were made. It became so obvious that the child wanted to remain with the other parent only, but due to court regulations it was impossible at that time. While the girl was with one parent, her school was close by; with the other parent she had to get up 1 hour earlier to make it in time. Sometimes she forgot her school books at the parent who was not on her schedule that day, she forgot her gym clothes, laundry wasn't done at one house, and so on and so on. It really was terrible for the kid and by the time she was 14 year old and could choose with whom she wanted to live, the kid choose one parent over the other to have a regular life almost all kids crave.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 10:03 pm
@CalamityJane,
This is exactly why I've always advocated (if friends asked) for the situation where the kid stays in the house, and the parents move in and out. Much easier on the kid/s. I've seen it happen in a few real-life situations and it had the best outcome of any shared custody situation I've witnessed. It's not easy on the parents financially or socially, but it sure makes them think about what they're doing.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2015 10:07 pm
@CalamityJane,
This example shows what happens when parents act immaturely. Of course there are anecdotes for any side... but the obvious fact is that it is much better for the kids when parents behave decently.

The research (according the the APA and other sources) shows that kids with a joint custody situation are far more likely to be happy with the arrangement, more likely to be connected to both parents and less likely to be caught in the middle of conflict. This is what I want for my daughter, her mother and I.

My connection to my daughter is very important to me and to her. I want my daughter to be connected to both her mother and I. A joint custody situation seems like the obvious best thing rather than having the two of us fight it out.

My ex-wife's lawyer seemed to have a political agenda against joint custody. Honestly that bothered me a bit, especially when I was trying very hard to put my daughter first while recognizing that maintaining a relationship with our daughter is very important for both her mom and I.

0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2015 08:33 am
@Ticomaya,
Sorry tico, but I have been in the other threads and at the least max as been as outrageous as Izzy has ever been. oralliar is a a class by himself.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2015 08:45 am
@maxdancona,
There goes the nastiness. This is what I got from you: your wife wanted a divorce and you didn't, and custody for your child was an issue.

Save the snark for someone else.
 

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