To spank or not? Let the town vote.

Miller, Walter - okay, I admit I don't know about USA. I thought it's the same as in Europe - actually I thought I read it somewhere but probably haven't - as for Europe:

EUROPE ACHIEVES HISTORIC MILESTONE AS
REGION IS DECLARED POLIO-FREE

http://www.who.int/inf/en/pr-EURO.2002-12.02.html

Croatia, for example in last three years had two cases of post-vaccinal polio and none cases of polio.

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Sozobe - not to repeat myself, you can see my wider opinion in one of previous posts.

As for your comment - that's fine, it's your choice, but that actually wasn't my point.

There are two points actually:
1. Spanking is not abusing (IF I correctly understand meaning of term "spanking" - English is not my native language so I'll allow possibility that I don't know what it is)

2. Every punishment can and by annoying moralizators WILL be called abusing - if you were so kind to tell us that you are not spanking your child, can you maybe (of course you don't have to) tell us how do you punish her when she is particularly bad? Of course, unless you have a saint for a child (which happens extremely rarely if ever), or unless you don't discipline her at all. Or even more important when she has her worst moments, how do you stop her? If calm talking is enough then I suggest you to sign her for college - she is wunderkind then, because, believe me, with 99,999999% of kids it's not working always.
If it is not enough you either don't discipline her at all, which is abusing in my opinion, or you are "abusing" her on other levels - government and moralizers just had no time to inform you so far.

Yelling? Verbal abusing. What does it teach child?
Sending her to her room? Psychical abusing. Sending small kid to be alone in room, how dare you?
Threatening her that if she does not start to behave good you will forbid her to watch cartoons or play with her favourite toy? THREATENING CHILD? What does it teach her??? That threatening someone for achieveing your goals is fine????

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and I am sure nobody had no bad intentions here, but it is pretty nice when someone actually reads posts of other people fully, and reads links he or she posted as well -

Quotes from Sozobe's link:

"If you are generally a nurturing parent practicing the attachment style of parenting, an occasional spanking is unlikely to damage your child or relationship"

and in the light of fact that nobody here said anything about abusing or constant spanking whenever child behaves little bit bad:

"Here is a story from a mother of two of my patients. She is an intuitive, loving parent with a strong connection to her children, and she has a huge repertoire of alternatives to spanking.

"There have been a few times when we have had to spank our kids, and it was when they were between three and five years old. It was three or four times for our daughter, maybe once or twice for our son. I don't like to see tantruming children flailing out of control. They need something to help them get control back. So on the few occasions that they were literally out of control we've used spanking. I can remember when one of them was throwing a tantrum, my husband said, 'I have to swat your bottom to help you stop.' It shocked him and he was able to regain his control."

Note: as I mentioned in one other topic - my daughter is 4,5 and I spanked her 4-5 times. Spanked her mildly of course.

edit: typo

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coluber2001 wrote:

It's funny that hitting people in prison is abuse, but hitting a little child is discipline. Discipline is learning not punishment, and I wonder what children learn from being hit.

It used to be thought that you could do anything to a young child, because he wouldn't remember it as an adult, so all kinds of abuse and neglect was justified on that premise. Now we know that the younger a person is when neglected or abused the more it affects their life; it's the disconnection from the abuse that affects them. People have to go into therapy to remember the past abuse and connect with their pain to end their neuroses. It's the not-remembering that causes the neruosis, not the remembering.

We weren't talking about abuse. We were talking about a little slap on the behind. Atleast I was. In my case, there were times where my son just wouldn't listen. What else can a parent do when you kids think they are the boss. I know that all kids aren't as rebelious as mine was, but when you do have a child that won't do as they're told, then talking just doesn't cut it.

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Montana - see above, from same link Sozobe provided Wink

And, of course, I sign your post as well. I am talking about it also.
If spanking is beating child heavily then I am against "spanking". I never had impression that's it.

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MyOwn
Same situation here. It was extremely rare that I ever lightly spanked my son and it was because he was throwing a tantrum and like you it might have been 4 or 5 times total.

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btw, sozobe, sorry if my post seems bit harsh - it's letter stuff Wink

If we were on a coffee break it would be normal conversation believe me - in written form everything seems bit too harsh.

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MyOwnUsername wrote:

Montana - see above, from same link Sozobe provided

And, of course, I sign your post as well. I am talking about it also.
If spanking is beating child heavily then I am against "spanking". I never had impression that's it.

Same here. I could never imagine thinking that what I did was abuse.

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I agree, Montana.

I have an extremely strong-willed child. Time-outs never worked at all. Spanking was a last resort, and he always knew it was reserved for one of two offenses: (1) doing something dangerous when he clearly knew better, or (2) willful defiance. I never had to spank him that often...just asking him if he wanted a spanking was usually good enough to calm him down and let him regain control of himself. I haven't had to spank him since he was 5 or 6.

I was spanked similarly when I was a child, and I have never considered it abuse.

On the other hand, I have known parents who slapped kids around whenever they (the parent) became angry, and I definitely considered that abuse. I have also known sensitive children who could be effectively disciplined with a look. (No chance here...mine would just ignore me.) Bottom line...all children are different. The same method won't work for all of them.

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of course, you are right - constant "spanking" although it possibly isn't really hard hitting is also abusing - if you hit child for every mistake its abusing, that's obvius.

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I agree with you both. What works for some kids doesn't do a thing for others.

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but I would also add that this "look" also works for some reason. Not because those are child that are naturally "scared" of someone looking them angrily Smile

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In my case, my son got easier as he got older and the "look" works quite well these days Evil or Very Mad

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exactly

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MyOwnUsername, what I was responding to was the pretty clear implication that kids need to be spanked sometimes, and anyone who disagreed had no moral authority unless they'd been through it. I've been through it, I haven't spanked. And no, my daughter is not a saint, at all -- very strong-willed, requiring a lot of attention and stimulation.

Quote:

Every punishment can and by annoying moralizators WILL be called abusing - if you were so kind to tell us that you are not spanking your child, can you maybe (of course you don't have to) tell us how do you punish her when she is particularly bad? Of course, unless you have a saint for a child (which happens extremely rarely if ever), or unless you don't discipline her at all. Or even more important when she has her worst moments, how do you stop her? If calm talking is enough then I suggest you to sign her for college - she is wunderkind then, because, believe me, with 99,999999% of kids it's not working always.
If it is not enough you either don't discipline her at all, which is abusing in my opinion, or you are "abusing" her on other levels - government and moralizers just had no time to inform you so far.

Yes, calm talking works. Though what I do is a lot more involved than that, a lot more proactive. I pay a ton of attention to her so that the withdrawal of that attention is itself a negative consequence. I praise her when she does things well. I don't put her in situations I know she won't be able to handle. (Like, what, going to a wedding after 4 hours in the car with no time to play and she's tired and cranky.) If she tantrums -- and she does, occasionally -- what I do is all of a sudden start telling a story that has nothing to do with the tantrum. (A REALLY INTERESTING story. That's the hard part. ;-)) It surprises her out of the tantrum, she stops and listens, and by the end of the story her blood pressure is down and she's ready to talk about what happened. (As a biological/ medical thing, kids just CAN'T be rational in the middle of a tantrum.)

I gotta quote one more thing from the Sears site (yes, I like them), as it gets at my response to "If it is not enough you either don't discipline her at all, which is abusing in my opinion" the best:

Quote:

One day I was watching a family in my waiting room. The child played happily a few feet away from the mother, frequently returning to her lap for a brief emotional refueling, then darting off again. As he ventured farther away, he glanced back at her for approval. Her nod and smile said "It's okay," and he confidently explored new toys. The few times the child started to be disruptive, the mother connected eye-to-eye with him and the father physically redirected him so that he received the clear message that a change in behavior was needed. There was a peace about the child and a comfortable authority in the parents. It was easy to see that they had a good relationship. I couldn't resist complimenting them: "You are good disciplinarians." Surprised, the father replied, "But we don't spank our child."

Our understanding of the word "discipline" was obviously different. Like many other parents, they equated discipline with reacting to bad behavior. She didn't realize that discipline is mostly what you do to encourage good behavior. It's better to keep a child from falling down in the first place than to patch up bumps and scrapes after he has taken the tumble.

I don't presume to say that what works for me would work for everyone. But the line that I bolded in the first quote about spanking from Dr. Sears is what made the biggest impression on me. Nothing has shown that it helps. And in terms of your comment about reading links, you neglected to quote this one, which immediately preceded the ones you posted:

Quote:

By now you should realize that our position on spanking is simple: don't. But we are also experienced enough to realize that some loving, nurturing, committed parents believe in spanking as part of their overall discipline package. As a pediatrician with thirty years in practice, I am also quite aware that regardless of our advice against spanking, some parents are going to spank their children. For these parents, the best we can hope for is to help them spank in a way that is less likely to become abusive. Consider these suggestions.

Kids grow up "just fine" after all kinds of things -- a week of McDonald's for lunch, seeing their parents have an ugly fight, getting lost at the mall -- but that doesn't mean that those things are desirable or good. It just means that they didn't irrevocably damage that particular kid.

So, again, I get antsy about legislating this stuff -- but I get equally antsy about the idea that all kids need the occasional spanking. They don't, and not just the saints. (Again, mine ain't.)

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Oh one more thing...

I don't have a saint but I know she is an especially good kid. When I was teaching, I worked with some especially bad kids. I didn't spank them, either -- there were other methods that worked.

This is all more a response to the general concept than specific stories here, though. If it worked for you, it worked for you.

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as far as you don't consider that ocassional, actually - rare, mild spanking is abusing we are fine Wink

Btw, I didn't neglected to quote anything - I quoted parts that are interesting in my opinion, at least as being contradictory to some other claims.
And as of things you mentioned, my wife and I are doing all of these things, and almost always they work. Sometimes, very rarely, they don't. And it's possible that once or twice it will not work for you as well. I hope it will always work, but she is just 3,5 years old - there's plenty of time Wink

My main point is that no one, absolutely NO ONE can't call mother and father from quote I provided from Dr. Sears - bad parents. And especially not abusers.

By the way, week of McDonald's for lunch is pure abusing Smile

But I am actually sorry that I never got lost in a mall - sounds like good adventure and I was adventourous kid Smile

Well, I doubt I would be so thrilled if that actually happened when I was 4, but now it seems like good idea Smile

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Montana wrote:

In my case, my son got easier as he got older and the "look" works quite well these days

True here, too! We are close & affectionate & treat each other kindly. He hates it when I'm unhappy with him.

(My son is 10, Montana...yours is what....17? Does this mean I don't have to fear the next few years coming up after all?!)

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For those who don't think the government has any right to interfere in child rearing where there is violence, remember, it has only been very recent that the police interferred in domestic violence. In other words, a man could hit his wife anytime he wanted with impunity.

What is the use of a spanking if it doesn't hurt? and if it does hurt, it's violence. In the least, violence against children teaches them that violence solves all problems. Solving problems through violence has been one of the primary themes of this country, and still is.

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To spank or not? Let the town vote.

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