Can we ever really know reality?

Piaget says people become realists at 2 yr old. An important achievement too...

What do you mean by "realist?"

Piaget's system models the psychological development of "objectivity", "causality", "logic" etc which are "realistic"concepts adults use in daily transactions. His model is based on mutual inner and outer state transitions (assimilation/accommodation). In short, concepts such as "objectivity" are not a priori (ontic realities), they are functional tools reflected in human daily efforts to predict and control what they see as "the world".

I doubt you ever understood him. Piaget was a generous, intelligent man, not a fake, not a poseur.

By realist I mean: "a person who assumes that the world exists out there, really and independently of it being observed or not". In other words, when he can't find his keys, a realist would assume the keys are somewhere, and can be searched and found. They did not disappear into thin air when the realist stopped looking at them. But for Al Fresco, things cease to exist when you don't look at them.

'Objectivity' is an idea, or an ideal. OF COURSE it has no existence by itself, outside of human thought. And evidently, we construct our mental tools and view of the world. The point is to construct them well, carefuly, so that they work well. And not deconstruct these tools gratuisly once you've constructed them.
According to Piaget, below 1 yr, kids don't realize that object exist independently of whether you look at them or not. After 2 yr old, if you fail to grasp that, you're a retard.

Seems to me that both sides of this argument are making the same “mistake”…only from different perspectives.

The problem is not that Fresco and the host of authorities to whom he appeals…are wrong, but that they insist they are right.

They MAY BE correct.

Humans…or the thing we commonly call “the human mind” (whether one or many) MAY BE essential to existence and REALITY. But “the human mind” may merely be an insignificant component of REALITY with an inflated opinion of itself…sorta like ancients supposing the Earth as the center of all that exists.

To insist, as does Fresco and his host, that human thought is essential to REALITY, ought easily to be seen as absurd by any intelligent, objective individual.

To insist its exact opposite, though, ought easily to be seen as just as absurd by any intelligent, objective individual. The only thing that may exist is human thought. (The thing "I" call I's thought.)

We do not know what the true nature of the REALITY of existence is.

I cannot help but wonder why that is so difficult for people to acknowledge.

I cannot help but wonder why that is so difficult for people to acknowledge that, IF they behave every single day of their lives exactly as if they believed their lives were real... then it is perhaps because deep down, they actually BELIEVE so, just like anybody else does.

Irrespective of what they PRETEND to believe or not. Irrespective of what Al Fresco calls their "social dancing", which is pure pretense. What they say is irrelevant. It's what they DO that matters.

And oddly enough, those guy who wonder whether stuff still exist when you don't look at them, they still do the dishes and carry away the garbage like you and I, and when they lose their keys, they do look for them rather than assuming their keys decided to stop existing once they had a chance... And they probably mumble things like: "They MUST be somewhere, they CAN'T have disappeared..." like we all do when we look for our keys.

They rationalise their schizophrenia by saying: "in day-to-day life, I go by common sense, but not when I philosophise..." Apparently these guys have more than one life, and philosophy is neatly confined to their OTHER lives, the one they don't live day by day.

They see philosophy in the boudoir, as an idle game. God forbid that it be called upon to help us live our day-to-day lives. That segment is for Oprah I guess.

In other words, they are fake.

True; actions speak louder than words. That's human reality pure and simple.

Yep, some would-be philosophers here live a life totally at odds with their professed philosophies, because they are just pretending to do philosophy, like kids pretend to drive cars on video games, for the fun of it.

Good straight forward honest post !

And yet it's so typically French to insist that philosophy is about everyday life, and so far away from the laborious ways of 'analytic philosophy'...

We can know everyday reality, but we will never have definite answers about ultimate reality. I still believe that philosophical discussion of ultimate reality is worthwhile, however. Such discussion will always be inconclusive but it frees us from dogmatism by showing us other possibilities.

French are still at least partially Latin with all the good and bad coming with it...Latin's although most Nordics don't suspect it have a trick or two to teach...and I mean intellectually. We have a sense of balance with the world, with life, with people, with having free time to live, they sometimes lack. We could borrow on their sense of work and organization, but we have an extremely good intuition and EQ...of course this is OBVIOUSLY extremely rough stereotype and dangerous talk in the wrong hands...large amounts of exceptions to the rule are everywhere.

I honestly don't believe there are any such nonsense as superior cultures or races (we just have natural affiliations) as I see them all as having something very important to teach each other. Having X or Y particular cultural or racial traits in no way means there is an overall winner or a best cultural outcome...it just means that there is complementarity in a social ecosystem that should thrive when it cherishes the differences and diversity and tries to learn from one another...I have friends of all colours and all social strata, from very different walks of life...they all contribute in great measure for my personal growth. They know how I think and we often amuse ourselves chatting about the differences open heartedly with no malice. We learn from one another and we gain different insights when we are open to listen the odd the awkward the non familiar.

If I am a racist I wish most social correct people were in practice like me...

PS - Also don't take my criticism to some very specific cultural French tendencies at heart...thank god I have good lateral vision not just tunnel focus... I told you before and insist once more there are tons and tons of good things about the French you just mentioned one of them.
Now don't ask me to buy the idea everyone is alike or that every culture is the same...in my humble opinion that is the wrong simplistic way of sorting out the tribalism problem, racism, or sexism... for that matter I cherish diversity !

Blah blah blah...

You just remind me why I had you on ignore...tolerance to different opinion is not your strongest point no matter what arguments are presented.
...à bientôt mon cher !

I have zero tolerance for racists, that's true.

...there is something interesting to be said about correctness and racism well worth bringing up...its the same thing some rich people sometimes do to poor people when they cross paths. Or what normal people do regarding handicapped people, visually impaired, etc...I am talking about positive discrimination.
The entertaining part of it is that its racism at its best coming from the apologists claiming to believe everyone is alike. I wish we grab a bunch of them and put them on the lying detecting machines... Wasn't it so sad smart people would been having the laugh of their lives when looking at it from a far...unfortunately its no matter to laugh at !

People are not alike, they are equal. It makes a difference.

Take aim at my posts all you like, but stick to what they say. If you try and use my nationality as a card, i'll call you BS racism because that's what it amounts too. Tough luck.

There is a distinction between equity and equality you seem to miss it.
People are not equal. People have special traits and are different. Overall they aren't better because of statistic distribution in thousands and thousands of characteristics which means they are equitatively valid and necessary for society. They complement each other...you have a lot to read on ecosystems, in particular human ecosystems and how they thrive on diversity like any other ecosystem...also stop confusing racism with tribalism...its an ignoramus thing to do, they are at different scales and do not address exactly the same thing although have a common source with racism, sexism, or any other form of segregation. By the way its well proven in sociology everyone with no exception is tribal in nature...better start accepting it and find ways of dealing with it instead of being an hypocrite pretending you are above it. It well known there is no cure to any problem without first recognizing you have it like everyone else.

PS - Also I am perfectly entitled to not like potatoes or tomatoes because of my particularities...it doesn't mean I think potatoes or tomatoes are bad overall (I have to put up with them if I want to be healthy) it just means they aren't good for my taste. Any intelligent person distinguishes perfectly their own tastes from a generalisation evaluating something regarding an holistic environment. Have you had it your way and everyone would be eating the same menu everyday, probably spinaches... You sir are mediocre to the bone and the worst thing is that deep down you know it. That's why you are so resentful...