15
   

Can we ever really know reality?

 
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 04:16 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
Can we ever really know anything except reality?


Good point about a possible implicit tautology.
Philosophers of language tend either to assign different "levels of embedded reference" to the two tokens of "reality" (Frege, I think) or dismiss the sentence as semantically aberrant (Wittgenstein, I believe).
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 04:18 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
If by that you mean the word 'essence' is impossible to define in a clear and useful way, i agree. But Kant's theory is compatible with the scientific method.
If Kant's claims are "compatible with the scientific method" then where are the third party, double blind, peer-reviewed experiments based on the scientific method, in which the essential predictive characteristic inherent to the foundation of said method, is readily accounted for?
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 04:23 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Quote:
Can we ever really know anything except reality?


Good point about a possible implicit tautology.
Philosophers of language tend either to assign different "levels of embedded reference" to the two tokens of "reality" (Frege, I think) or dismiss the sentence as semantically aberrant (Wittgenstein, I believe).


Good observation, but I was taking the phenomenological tack.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 04:26 pm
@Chumly,
Husserl argued that Kant's phenomena (as opposed to noumena) could certainly be "scientifically studied". You only need to make the assumption of "common human perceptual apparatus and observational needs" in order to go along with that.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 04:28 pm
@fresco,
Voltaire's position was simply that metaphysics are a waste of time, and cannot be of any use to men. It is better to 'tend one's garden' (care for what you can fathom and control) than worry about the imponderable... You should feel sympathy for such a pragmatic stance. And it applies to any context, i'd venture, other than perhaps a metaphysics exam...?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 04:44 pm
@Chumly,
No contradiction there. Some sciences (not all) simply attempt to predict phenomena. A scientific theory can be associated to or underwritten by a particular metaphysical idea (understood as a theory about the true essence of things) but but but:

1) what gets predicted and tested is the behavior and only the behavior;
2) the prediction is never perfect, there's always a margin of error to any experiment;
3) there always remains a doubt about the validity of any theory--reality remains opaque in this sense; and
4) more than one metaphysical interpretation can generally be associated with any single scientific theory.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 04:46 pm
@Olivier5,
Certainly "use to men" is a key issue to pragmatists. But "use" is sufficiently wide in connotation to include psychological therapies like religious beliefs and armchair philosophy. Indeed, the general uses of what goes on here could be described as anything from "social dancing" to "staving off early dementia".

Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 04:47 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
Yes, I do apologize for focusing on your raising of the "yes" pole of the argument. This is based on former conversations with you indicating you are a "scientific realist". I agree with Olivier's point to you about Kant, which together with Heisenberg's remarks about "never observing nature directly" seem to leave "scientific realism" out in the philosophical backyard. That is why I favor the pragmatism of Rorty (et al) which dismisses the "reality debate" as futile.

BTW. I never rely on "appeals to authority". I often quote thinkers I feel illustrate my ideas by providing the context essential for their interpretation. Such semantic referencing is mandatory in the humanities (in which I include philosophy), and I find objections to it tend to be a form of simplistic posturing by people who are ignorant of the literature. (This of course is not directed to you personally).
I thought I was an adherent of naive realism in your eyes? If so I am not sure if being a scientific realist is an upgrade, downgrade or lateral move, but in any case the following modest essay may be closer to what I would like from myself http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html.

As to Heisenberg's remarks about "never observing nature directly" that would be an inevitability given that our sensory information comes to us (for example) via a portion of the electromagnetic spectra (visible light), then via a transducer (the eyes) then via modeling in a computer (the brain). But that does not preclude a man-made machine's ability to make observations without our senses being involved in the initial process, nor does that preclude the observational results from being predictive, and thus again being at least in part exempt of the concern of "never observing nature directly".
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 04:49 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:


BTW. I never rely on "appeals to authority". I often quote thinkers I feel illustrate my ideas by providing the context essential for their interpretation. Such semantic referencing is mandatory in the humanities (in which I include philosophy), and I find objections to it tend to be a form of simplistic posturing by people who are ignorant of the literature. (This of course is not directed to you personally).



Thank you for that, Fresco...I needed a good laugh tonight.

Squeezing that rationalization into your paragraph took balls.
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 05:05 pm
@ExistentialPotential,
ExistentialPotential wrote:
All the ways in which humanity has attempted to grasp reality, from the earliest religions to the contemporary views of the natural and social sciences are all tied in some way to the perspective that humans have on existence.
Not so, mathematics does not have to make the presumption that humans have an existence. Chimpanzees can do mathematics (of a sort), heck even my students can, and I'm not convinced that with some of them the concept of "humanity" is applicable.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 05:11 pm
@Chumly,
Quote:
......given that our sensory information comes to us....

The word "given" certainly indicates naive realism. The word "information" is problematic to constructive accounts of epistemology. Such an account raises objections to your use of the word "observation", but you have no way of understanding them from your starting axioms which imply that perception is passive. A consideration of the central issue of "prediction" should yield that perception is an active process.
All this is very basic stuff which we have fought over in the past. You are unlikely to be moved out of your comfort zone by me, but I would be interested in knowing how you come to terms with such statements from quantum theory like "everything than can happen, does happen" (Brian Cox). Such statements would seem to pull the rug from under all realists, Einstein being no exception.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 05:19 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Don't forget Frank context is all.
Thank you for illustrating that point by attempting to re-negotiate it.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 05:50 pm
@Chumly,
'Observational results' (facts) are not predictive. They are just facts. 'This phenomena were observed at that moment in this place under these conditions." Nothing predictive here.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 05:55 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
"social dancing" to "staving off early dementia".

Therefore, not serious philosophy in the first instance (pretense), and applied philosophy in the second instance (therapy: inasmuch as the wrong philosophy can induce dementia, dementia can be treated by philosophy).
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 06:48 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Don't forget Frank context is all.
Thank you for illustrating that point by attempting to re-negotiate it.


Jesus H. Christ, Fresco...stop trying to play the genius. You will never pull it off.

Say Merry Christmas to all...and sign off, because you are making a fool of yourself.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 07:23 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
'Observational results' (facts) are not predictive. They are just facts. 'This phenomena were observed at that moment in this place under these conditions." Nothing predictive here.
Nope, the essence of science is indeed predictive, it's not just some overly simplistic notion of so-called "Observational results (facts)". I'll go even further and assert that it does not matter if one claims to have applied the scientific method; no predictive ability equals at best incomplete scientific methodology, and at wost pseudo-scientific drivel.
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 07:43 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
Quote:
......given that our sensory information comes to us....
The word "given" certainly indicates naive realism. The word "information" is problematic to constructive accounts of epistemology. Such an account raises objections to your use of the word "observation", but you have no way of understanding them from your starting axioms which imply that perception is passive. A consideration of the central issue of "prediction" should yield that perception is an active process.
All this is very basic stuff which we have fought over in the past. You are unlikely to be moved out of your comfort zone by me, but I would be interested in knowing how you come to terms with such statements from quantum theory like "everything than can happen, does happen" (Brian Cox). Such statements would seem to pull the rug from under all realists, Einstein being no exception.
I'm not sure how you would want to use the words in question but I intend them as follows: "given" in this context is used as a preposition as per: "taking into account" and "sensory information" in this context referis to the signal (from the optic nerve) the brain uses to model the eye's input.

As to quantum physics, I am not doubting its experimental veracity, however that in no way means philosophy can take a free ride on its coattails, by cherry-picking some of its conventions and avoiding the predictive nature of the actual science.

Show me the predictive nature of the philosophy you espouse, show me the scientific methodologies of the philosophy you espouse and I would be pleased to accommodate your viewpoint that the philosophy you espouse collates with quantum theory.
carloslebaron
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 08:44 pm
@Chumly,
Quote:
Nope, the essence of science is indeed predictive, it's not just some overly simplistic notion of so-called "Observational results (facts)". I'll go even further and assert that it does not matter if one claims to have applied the scientific method; no predictive ability equals at best incomplete scientific methodology, and at wost pseudo-scientific drivel.


Your position is incorrect.

Lots of recent observed phenomena of the universe was "never predicted" but were amazing views that are causing revolution in our knowledge in science.

Same applies with new learning about our genes. In other words, science always advances with the same old same old: trial and error, in order to succeed.

On the other hand, and going back to the topic itself. We have here a poster who doesn't know if the computer in front of him is "real", however he uses it to write me messages. Let's wait what time he finally will wake up to find out that it was not a "real dream" but a real objective motion of his fingers on the keyboard.

And even more. Many philosophers of the past tried to think about reality as something beyond the objective and subjective phenomena we are capable to perceive or know.

And my question is, if they are right, can someone explain such and existence without the objective world we perceive with out senses?

I truly laugh of the idea of an existent universe not connected to our physical objective universe. People can think whatever they want, but without existing brains they can't think at all.

The dependency in our own existence rules over any thought about something else. We must be REAL in order to think.

Unless someone can prove it different.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 09:04 pm
@carloslebaron,
carloslebaron wrote:

Quote:
Nope, the essence of science is indeed predictive, it's not just some overly simplistic notion of so-called "Observational results (facts)". I'll go even further and assert that it does not matter if one claims to have applied the scientific method; no predictive ability equals at best incomplete scientific methodology, and at wost pseudo-scientific drivel.


Your position is incorrect.

Lots of recent observed phenomena of the universe was "never predicted" but were amazing views that are causing revolution in our knowledge in science.

Same applies with new learning about our genes. In other words, science always advances with the same old same old: trial and error, in order to succeed.

On the other hand, and going back to the topic itself. We have here a poster who doesn't know if the computer in front of him is "real", however he uses it to write me messages. Let's wait what time he finally will wake up to find out that it was not a "real dream" but a real objective motion of his fingers on the keyboard.

And even more. Many philosophers of the past tried to think about reality as something beyond the objective and subjective phenomena we are capable to perceive or know.

And my question is, if they are right, can someone explain such and existence without the objective world we perceive with out senses?

I truly laugh of the idea of an existent universe not connected to our physical objective universe. People can think whatever they want, but without existing brains they can't think at all.

The dependency in our own existence rules over any thought about something else. We must be REAL in order to think.

Unless someone can prove it different.


Sounds to me as though you are bragging that you are exceptionally close minded, Carlos.

Well...if you are proud of it...why not.

Merry Christmas to you, your family and friends. Peace!
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 11:10 pm
The question, Can we every really know reality? depends, doesn't it, on what we mean by "know". What is it we want to know about it? The way I think about it I cannot help but know it, experentially.
 

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