2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

Your points 1-3 are familiar, RealJohn and needed to be said! But your point 4 is really important.

If we were to do a comparative study of those figures, at what point do you think we'd find the figures getting "really scary"? What year?

Tartarin

Stieglitz. Yes those two are my touchstones as well.

as i am sure most of you know, the dept of labor which releases the unemployment stats every month also releases what they call "payroll" stats which i believe are far more relevant. the last one i read perhaps a month ago showed that the only areas of gain in payrolls was in the medical services and financial services sectors.

Thank you, Blatham. There's another thread about favorite 10 people for dinner. I think a small table in a quiet restaurant with Krugman and Stieglitz as the honored guests would do me just fine. You're welcome to join us.

Ah, but my statement which you quote was NOT a response to you or to the statement you quote. I understand your statement, and you may be right. I doubt we will know though, because I suspect the jobless rate will be much improved before anyone gets a chance to cast that vote.

Tartarin, Real John - I heard this discussed the other night on the PBS Newshour (by Krugman), and it sounded even scarier than you say. We've lost a whole clothing industry - from fabrics and dyehouses to manufacturing - through outsourcing and other fancy words. And it's been creeping up on us little by little. Blame was always laid on the unions, but that wasn't totally true. As usual, bottom line was the final answer. Agriculture disappeared, except for the huge conglomerates. I've been thinking about this, and it seems to me that part of what's happened is that the idea of bigness just sort of took over. In all things. The day of the independent - pharmacist, grocer, repairman - somehow went, along with the respect for the skill and service. We here write as individuals, but I am afraid we may be a disappearing breed too.

And yet.....somewhere I read or heard on the news today that over-all large mall sales (except for the chains and the larger stores) were down 40%; that there are governors and mayors now looking to restore their downtowns and local areas. (That I have been reading on the Governors Association site.) Maybe we are now beginning to swing the other way on the pendulum - back to the individual? This would help explain the appeal of Howard Dean, who does not appear as just part of the crowd, but rather, an individual with the crowd.

Tartarin

Absolutely. Some poorly lit place with a checkered tablecloth and a candle in an old vermouth bottle covered with wax drippings. I'll listen attentively while nonchalantly filling their wine glasses whenever they get less than three quarters full. Then I'll hit them up for a personal loan. Please let me know when this is arranged. If you find that they are otherwise engaged for the next while, let's do it with Pagels, Chompsky, Maliagar, and Scrat.

mama

Remember the hype regarding the Japanese model of organization? This even influenced educational administration theory, for pete's sake. One of my great joys of the past decade has come from watching this idiotic romanticism gain a thick tarnish.

I am utterly flabbergasted on a fairly regular basis with how we humans get suckered into the easy solution...the black and white of our myths. The notion that the corporate model will magically spit out the best of all possible worlds (and leaders) isn't much less stupid than relying on the church.

Gimme a break, Blatham. If there's anything on the little checkered tablecloth I could use as a weapon, please let's not put Maliagar and Scrat at risk. Though of course mixing them with Chomsky changes things: the onus of whacking them might pass to Noam who would first stun them with his sentence structure and then pierce them with his wit. I doubt the state would have much of a case against, should that happen. Whereas I'd be hauled in for weaponizing an old vermouth bottle...

Mamaj -- We both read Krugman in the Times and his columns have been notably scary lately. I guess that's the line he followed on PBS?

Mamaj -- I was away all day in Austin and only just saw your post about Dean and individualism, but we must have been on the same wavelength, give or take a couple of hours.

In Austin, a fiercely liberal town (being taken over gradually by cons), I ran into someone I hadn't seen for a while. He's an inventor and invented some device which was used to allow filming of the Atlanta Olympics from a great height and odd angles.

I was thinking about him as I drove along, and how Austin and liberalism are associated in my mind with the "new Democrat," the creative, individualistic entrepreneur. There are many in the party now. I suppose one could say -- I'd say -- they are what I thought Amurrica was all about.

The party needs to keep them, nurture them, and I think you've put your finger on this. I realized a while back that Dean represents to me and others I know individualism and freedom, doing it yourself, not caving in to corporate culture. Fiscally savvy, socially progressive, and environmentally educated. If we're all gradually shifting in that direction, I'm positively ebullient!

while new home construction sales have been a mainstay for the current economy, things are not looking up:

Good evening...bear with me mamaj and tartarin et al on this: I am a dyed-in-the-wool liberal Democrat on social issues (learnt from my mother who was a fervent player in the desegregation movement in our sleepy Southern town in the 1960's). I' m still pro-prettymucheverything when it comes to race, religion, gender, abortion, sexual orientation and the importance of free speech (have I left anything out?)

But as I get older I have found my attitudes changing a bit. I've become more cynical. For example, I see the number of women with little kids walking by my store on the way to the nearby public hospital. I rarely see the fathers. Perhaps they are at work, I hope. Or perhaps they aren't around at all I find myself thinking.

Tartarin: I'm not sure that I understood your comment about when the job loss numbers got really scary. I reckon that some might argue that it coincided with the introduction of NAFTA, but the response from me can wait for awhile.

The Dems need to realize that, though my vote is a lock, they may need to move somewhat to the right. -rjb-

I've probably gotten more libertarian while remaining a lefty in most ways.

It's troubling to me that someone would assume that a woman taking her child to the hospital might be part of a failure in her life either because her child doesn't have an acknowledged father present. He may be at work. They may be divorced. The mother may have chosen to be a single mother. And myriad other possibilities. The trouble starts not with the mother but with the assumptions of the onlooker who is perhaps overly influenced by stereotypes. Me? I'd be more worried about the kind of care the two may receive at the hospital. That's where I feel the greatest failure may be.

I think if the Dems move any further to the right, they won't have to bother with the Dem label to separate them from Republicans. And I think both parties are very close -- and taking us very close -- to the edge of a cliff.

Dear Lord, it's in your hands.

I'm with you, Tartarin, but I just figured I didn't understand JohnBoy's point.

Kuvasz what is that? I am more comfortable thinking of it as some sort of rebuttal to Pat Robertson's prayer for the Supreme Court. If not, I find myself uncomfortable with it.

Blatham - we've (a lot of us here) gotten old in the art of dreaming and wishing things to be. One of the things I get a kick out of is the way my oldest grandson describes me to his friends. "She's my grandmother, and my dad says she still doesn't know how to get off the soapbox." Well, at least the kid has finally given up those ridiculous pants, and the scraggly little beard. But I keep expecting that someday, somewhere, a white knight will come riding out of the mists, and we shall all be saved. And it's not that I haven't been exposed. I grew up in a political family, and myself spent about eight years as an active democratic committeewoman. Hope springs eternal.

Job loss (and gain) is a continuing thing, but the frightening part is the growing figures on the situation since 2000. From what I read, what's been holding up the economy has been the mortgage rates, which enabled homeowners to re-finance and get some spending capital, and car sales, which were based on low interest and give-aways. Now interest rates on both are going up, which will mean that much less spendable money. Where the joblessness is starting to show is in, among many other things, consumer confidence, and this is a figure really beginning to slip, according to the National Conference Board. To think, Bush inherited a surplus. What a lucky guy. Where would he be without all those inheritances? And you don't inherit a recession that contains a surplus. So the economy has sunk fast in just three years.

Tart - I heard Lieberman, and I've been reading about him. And there's a man who sounds like a sheep. Which, I think, ties in with what Blatham said. So, if America doesn't feel safe with, or want somebody who stands up to be counted, why do so many flock to Dean, who seems to be the shepherd rather than the sheep?

mj, it is what you said it was, a spoof on robertson invoking the almighty for political purposes. it was seen on the website of that paragon of virtue, a man who has fought the good fight for freedom of expression and the american way, a man himself left not untouched by the violence of this world, larry flynt.

This not really true Tartarin in that it assumes the Repubs have remained status quo as the Dems moved right. In all actuality, the Repubs have moved well into the centrist postion of Fascism and are approaching Totalitarianism at this point!

"The last time a Rhodes scholar from Arkansas announced against an incumbent named Bush who had just won a war in Iraq, he did okay. And he declared in October."
--Josh Margulies, co-founder of the Draft Wesley Clark movement, responding to conventional wisdom that says Clark is too late to the party to raise funds and build support

Wa Po

I do not think he seriously plans to run, but if he should, this would be...

The Only Television Commercial Al Gore Would Need to Air

"Hi. I'm Al Gore and I'm running for re-election."

"Did you know that, four years ago, I received the most votes in Florida?"

<video of Republican staffers' 'riot' that stopped the recount>

"Did you know that, four years ago, I received the most votes in America?"

<video of George Bush clowning or otherwise making a fool of himself>

"So why is George Bush your president today?"

<video of George Bush relaxing in Crawford, and playing golf>

"Because moneyed interests in Washington decided you needed a change in leadership."

<video of Supreme Court Justices>

"Because some people thought there was no difference between Republicans and Democrats."

<video of Ralph Nader>

"I ask you - is this leadership?"

<video of George Bush's wide-eyed stare as Andy Card whispers the news of the 9/11 attacks into his ear>

"Is this?"

<video of Bush pumping his fist and saying "Feels good.">

"Is this?"

<video of Bush climbing out of the jet on the USS Lincoln, cut to him standing in front of the 'Mission Accomplished' banner>

"Is this?"

<cut to video of Enron, Adelphia, Tyco, Worldcom, rolling California blackouts, fast photo montage representative of the disastrous Bush administration>

"I'm Al Gore, and I'm running for re-election."

<cut to Gore>

"Let's return Democracy to America."