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2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 May, 2003 08:44 pm
Well spoken, Sofia. I do hope you noticed that in demanding a specifically accurate statement about just what it was which Clinton did (i.e., lied in a deposition to a grand jury, and not in a "court of law"--the expression of heightened accusation to which i objected), that i also doubted the likelihood that the Whitewater transactions were completely above board. I'm not convinced of the probity of any politician who works his/her way up through the state ranks, because of the very nature of our political system, with the necessity of "buying" office. I do object to ratcheting up the rhetoric, especially in order to sneer at those who do not hold one's own political point of view. And i don't believe it serves any purpose here, other than to poison discourse.

I admire you for your honesty here, Boss.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 May, 2003 08:56 pm
I'm not convinced of the probity of any politician who works his/her way up through the state ranks, because of the very nature of our political system, with the necessity of "buying" office.
--------------------------
Boy, did you say it. Funny how Washington runs around peeking in bedrooms, but probes into payoffs and the like are few... We should drop a cage over the lot of them.

Greatly appreciated your comment.
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mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 May, 2003 09:52 pm
DEPOSITION: The testimony of a witness taken upon interrogatories, not in open court, but in pursuance of a commission to take testimony issued by a court, or under a general law on the subject, and reduced to writing and duly authenticated, and intended to be used upon the trial of an action in court. Black's Law Dictionary.


Not the same thing as a sworn to statement in an open court.

Nobody runs for public office without an overiding ambition. And along the way no candidate for office survives without getting an education in politics. It's what they do with it that matters. What decisions are made, what actions taken.

Clinton had his faults, but he also has an indefinable something known as presence. And the air of a caring leader. And in a world where people worry about whether they are being listened to, that at least some of their cares are being met, that counts for something, and helps explain his continuing popularity. Most people
really don't (and didn't) care about his personal life. And some part of it looked a bit like entrapment.

But that's over now, and we've had twenty six months in which to contemplate a new president and administration. And some time in which to consider the decisions and actions taken.

I think the republicans learned a thing or two from the Clinton years, too. There is no evidence at all of any family or personal life here. It would be sort of nice to think of Bush as being part of some family group
0 Replies
 
maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 May, 2003 11:12 pm
I apologize for the length of the following:

Quote:
In the Jones lawsuit, Clinton's perjury occurred during discovery - an area where perjury is often a problem. Legal commentator Stuart Taylor Jr. writes: "I fear [that] the discovery process has been clogged by a culture of evasion and deceit that accounts for much of its grotesque wastefulness, and the adversary system has been perverted from an engine of truth into a license for lawyerly lies."

These problems may get worse in the coming years. A 1996 study by the Josephson Institute of Ethics found that today's fifteen- to thirty-year-old generation is more likely to engage in dishonest and irresponsible behavior than previous generations. The same organization reported in 1998 that huge numbers of young people admit to lying to their parents, cheating on tests and stealing from stores.

Blatant perjury and obstruction of justice by the President of the United States, and a dismissive attitude toward those crimes by many government officials, will only exacerbate this sorry situation in our legal system and among young people. Great statesmen and philosophers have recognized for millennia that the actions of government leaders set a moral tone for the rest of society.

For example, Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis wrote: "Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy."

By ignoring or minimizing the potential effect of Clinton's horrible example, government officials and the legal profession are turning a blind eye not only to society's need for proper role models but also to the tremendous harm that perjury causes.

The great nineteenth-century lawyer and orator Robert Ingersoll eloquently described that harm: "f there is an infamous crime in the world it is the crime of perjury. All the sneaking instincts; all the groveling, crawling instincts unite and blend in this one crime called perjury. It clothes itself . . . in the shining vestments of an oath in order that it may tell a lie.



And the most important part, and why I turn into Mr. "Dagwood Bumstead's Boss" about the matter:
By ignoring or minimizing the potential effect of Clinton's horrible example, government officials and the legal profession are turning a blind eye not only to society's need for proper role models but also to the tremendous harm that perjury causes

Sorry people, I think a "pass" is undeserved in this instance, regardless of his political persuasion.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 May, 2003 11:29 pm
I am curious to know if you showed the same indignation for the contempt which Erlichmann, Haldeman and North showed for the Senate, and the investigatory powers of the Congress? Did your political persuasion lead you to decide that they had not perjured themselves? Because, of course, as a subversion of the powers of the peoples' elected representatives, such a course shouldn't be given a "pass," regardless of their political persuasion. By the way, it is normal to give a citation for such an article as you have posted, so that others here can judge for themselves the possible prejudices of the author and the source from which it was obtained.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 May, 2003 11:55 pm
setanta

The little bit in Max's post about 'our young people' and 'moral tone' kind of gives source away, doesn't it. And don't you just love the fire and brimstone feel of that last quotation.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2003 01:03 am
Wow! Lot's of stuff about Clinton and lying and blah blah blah. Of course Clinton lied, what else can we call it? And he lied to some level of authority, whether it was the top one or not..........really, Sofia, Maxsdadeo, please let's agree all, Clinton lied. Setanta is absolutely right about this (and I'm glad he did get worked up, he's so effective when he does that - great post Setanta) Everybody lied during the impeachment fiasco. It is possible to lie by telling the truth.

Which of us would not lie in order to protect ourselves and our friends (in Clinton's, case the voting public) from an attempted and almost successful power coup? (what the Republican fanatics were trying to do was to steal the election from the voters.) Those who have raised their hands to indicate the affirmative to this question are way too masochistic for me. Masochism itself is a lie of a high order.

Sure Clinton lied and I'm proud of him for doing so. Many a politician would have simply bowed out at some point along the horrendous way but I was very happy that Clinton didn't. He was elected by the voters of this country twice by decisive margins (no need to count hanging chads for these two elections.) I have a very hard time distinguishing between this attempt to overstep the will of the voters and the one that came next, in the 2000 election. Now talk to us about these two lies which, unlike the one Clinton told in self defense, are massive, calculated and on going. They are systemic lies which are a far greater danger to our democracy, our civil rights and the rule of reason.

Rather than obsessively arguing over whether Clinton lied, let's work out a scale of lying. The lest dangerous and more necessary being the lie told in self defense, to protect the voter's rights and the most dangerous, the lie that institutionalizes lying as a form of manipulating the people and jeopardizing democracy. It's just plain silly to obsess over the legalisms...............let's talk function please.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2003 07:36 am
Let's also get back on topic, please.

Link at the bottom for the following entirely:


With the 2004 Presidential election looming up ahead, despairing supporters of the Democratic party decry that the Dems of today couldn't outrace a Republican if he were hog-tied and running backward. The problem, pundits pontificate, has to do with the Dems' inability to grow any one of a number of essential anatomical pieces that colloquially symbolize courage. Syndicated columnist Arianna Huffington writes:

Quote:
"The Party leaders are so timid, spineless, and lacking in confidence that to compare them to jellyfish would be an insult to invertebrates."


Backbone. Wherever has it gone? And, more importantly, why has it gone? Former President and self-named "comeback kid" Bill Clinton told the Associated Press that Democrats stand to do well in the coming election if and only if they "stop fighting among themselves and refocus their criticism on their eventual foes -- President Bush and the Republicans." The critics' consensus seems to be that the Democratic Party has relieved Republican strategists of their work by poking holes in each others' arguments. While Democratic centrists and moderates vie for voter support, the GOP's PR geniuses chuckle away amongst their spitwads and paper fighter jets. Michael Tomasky of The American Prospect writes of the intra-party factions:

Quote:
"Honestly and honorably, they have very different ideas about what the Democratic Party should be and where it should go. They should present those ideas to voters in a competitive fashion. But they should not be providing fodder, and entertainment, for [Bush adviser] Karl Rove.
"[T]he two factions have to behave less like factions and more like people who are fighting a common enemy."


Reporters with their eyes on the polls say that most voters side with the Democrats' stances on health care, gun control, abortion, the environment, and most other issues. The perceived base of support for the Republican Party stems not from widespread voter mentality, but rather from a very vocal and radical minority, or, as Tomasky puts it:

Quote:
"The Republican Party is ideologically homogeneous because the conservative movement has taken ownership of it. But the Democratic Party is, and will remain for a while, a heterogeneous party."


Columnists and the constituency call for the Democratic Party to risk alienating one or more of the small subgroups within its' voter base and to take a clear stand on the nations' most pressing issues. Otherwise, Dems will be seen as fearing a President who is only admirable in his ability to act with disregard for what the general populace thinks. Perhaps Democrats could stand to learn from Bush -- or at least some Texas legislators. Take cues from the Dems in the Lone Star State, urges Newsday's Robert Jensen:

Quote:
"If you want to be something more than Karl Rove's doormat, keep more of an eye on Texas in the coming months than on the polls. Taking risks might prove to be politically effective. And even if it doesn't win votes in the short term, it will win back some self-respect."


Mother Jones
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2003 07:58 am
What harms this nation?
Can you imagine what that was like? You're the President of the United States, the leader of the free world, Commander in Chief of the greatest armed forces on the planet. You are in a room with several interrogators from the Office of the Special Prosecutor. Are they asking you about the great powers that you wield, threats to the Constitution or some other high crime? Are they asking you if you are part of some nefarious plot to subvert this Republic? Are they questioning you about some action you might have taken, or not taken, that resulted in devastation for millions?

No, they are asking you if you ever got extramarital blowjob.
====
What harms this nation? When I hear someone knocking the Clinton Administration, I ask them what was wrong. "All those scandals," they say, "it just never stopped." but when I ask them how many of the scandals turned out to be true and how many were just attempts by the right to spread lies about the President, they are sometimes stunned to realize that they have been duped into thinking that this was a bad man. You dump enough lies around, pretty soon folks start thinking some of them must be true, even if they are all lies.
What harms this nation? The right, in it's well orchestrated pattern of lies or Bill Clinton's one about the wipe and wash?
Oh, they rejoin, his lie was under oath. Yes, under oath and asked by those men from the Special Prosecutor's Office who were either about the people's business and deeply interested in the President's conduct of his Office as the leader of the free world or part of the pattern of lies designed to bring him down.
What harms this nation?
Spreading lies about a President, a President who lies about a blowjob,or a President who lies to us about his conducting the nation's business, his political methods or his motives for going to war. Maybe we should ask Nixon, maybe we should ask Johnson, maybe we should ask Reagan? Or since they seem to unavailable ask the current holder of the office?

The GOP tried to make Character an issue in the last election, it might be time to call their hand in this one.
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sweetcomplication
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2003 08:31 am
BEAT BUSH 2004!
PDiddie, just some thoughts . . . we must get Bush out of office; but, as you wrote, the Republicans have become so successful by coalescing as the right wing of their party; what can we do to win? I don't want some DLC member with all their expediency and I don't want the Republican wing of the Democractic party to win. Don't get me wrong; if nothing else, the judges Bush continues to nominate along with many other of his actions makes me certain I would in fact vote for just about any Democrat, however, we need to get behind some integrity as well. The largest so-called interest group to bring us together are those who want jobs & justice. I've seen, as I'm certain you have, people get together who are not in lock-step; but the absolute necessity of bringing us together must be gotten across. I don't think McAuliffe is the person to do this. Please, anyone and everyone, help me out here Crying or Very sad
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2003 08:49 am
I just want to make a statement -- and that's that I've given up on Sofia and Max, both of whom seem to speak sensibly but whose intellectual integrity and social values are highly questionable, in my view. They are not alone in this, but their challenges to the more thoughtful, moral folk are both mean-spirited and just as slippery as the "is, is" statement of the man they're going after in these pages. They represent a section of our political culture which is more interested in which lies win than in which truths lose.
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sweetcomplication
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2003 09:09 am
mean-spiritedness
Tartarin:

Amen to your statement re Sofia. Based upon your assessment, I'll research Max as well.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2003 09:22 am
Tartarin

I suspect they have also given up on you and I. That's ok, sometimes, for whatever set of reasons, bridges just don't get built between folks. Communities are conglomerates of individual and group viewpoints. We'll all keep talking and viewpoints will shift, or they won't.
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Mapleleaf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2003 09:33 am
I wonder if the lively discussion re Clinton and such could be shifted to a new thread...I mean you guys were rolling.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2003 09:46 am
I don't think so, ML, it's been chopped pretty finely by now, and it's mostly still alive because Maxsdadeo can't seem to accept that anyone would differ with him on the vile nature of Clinton's character and the catastrophic nature of his actions. I'd say it's been exhausted, unless and until Max produces the source for the material he posted--in which case we can entertain ourselves with the partiality of that source . . .
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2003 10:00 am
It does seem that the subject never dies away. I think it doesn't die not only because it's so titillating (sexual content and intrigue) but also because it so represents the past and present technique of the Republican party. It's relevant to the subject of this thread in that respect. What we gonna do about it for this election? That's the question, as Pdiddle points out.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2003 10:10 am
When I went to bed last night, happy to have ended what could have been a contentious argument with Setanta, in a very satisfactory, amicable fashion--I knew I would wake up to a different story.

The more radical haters on the board would be very unhappy that The Conservative Poster Girl was getting on nicely with one of their own, I told myself--and would be sure to stir up discord. Who, I thought....?

Tartarin, I thought.

I have an aversion to calling people out by name, as it is against the rules and counterproductive to civilied debate--but since Tartarin regularly does it, and has again done it to me--

Show me an instance where I was mean=sprirted, and I will show you two from you. For someone who is so well-read and in possession of such a good volcabulary, you make some of the stupidest statements on this board--
Democrats are good people....Democrats love their families....Republicans do't wash their underwear... These huge blanket biased statements should come out of the mouth of a skinhead, not an educated person. You talk like you've been brainwashed, or something.

Tartarin, you are so saturated in hate that you assume a statement from me means a million things besides what I've said. I say what I mean. Show me where I was mean-spirited--just remember your flank. You've spewed ALOTTA 'mean-spiritedness' in these quarters, not I.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2003 10:15 am
Tartarin said:
They represent a section of our political culture which is more interested in which lies win than in which truths lose.
---------------------
This is a lie. You would do better to address the issues and stop thinking you have the bility to read people's minds.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2003 10:28 am
Tartarin wrote:
I just want to make a statement -- and that's that I've given up on Sofia and Max, both of whom seem to speak sensibly but whose intellectual integrity and social values are highly questionable, in my view. They are not alone in this, but their challenges to the more thoughtful, moral folk are both mean-spirited and just as slippery as the "is, is" statement of the man they're going after in these pages. They represent a section of our political culture which is more interested in which lies win than in which truths lose.


All of us are susceptible to occasional hypocrisy, excessive self-promotion, mean-spirited criticism of others, and lack of full understanding of that about which we pontificate. However Tartarin's statement above hits a new low for ATK ! Normally I ignore such self-satisfied absurdity, but this one demands recognition.
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maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2003 11:33 am
Quote:
I am curious to know if you showed the same indignation for the contempt which Erlichmann, Haldeman and North showed for the Senate, and the investigatory powers of the Congress?


Let's get something straight, buddy boy.
I don't like crooks.
I don't care if they are democrats or republicans, I have no use for them or their defenders.

As to whether or not I felt the same indignation for their misdeeds, the question is a moot one.

Where they elected at the time?

No.

They were all appointed.

Governmental employees that are appointed should be held to a high standard to be sure, but let's not kid ourselves.

To try to equate the misdeeds of the three wise guys you list to that of the President of the United States may work for you, but it is a laughingstock to others.


The omnipotent link, so coveted by Setanta so that he may judge, not the words, but the person who uttered them initially. Sorry to disappoint ya, buddy.
0 Replies
 
 

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