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2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

 
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 02:55 pm
Craven - I'll skip calling you disingenuous and just assume you haven't really thought this through.

Let's consider the federal assault gun ban. Using your argument, this law would fail the equal protection test because it effects only those who wish to purchase assault weapons, while having no impact on those who do not.

This is, of course, absurd. The fact is that the assault weapon ban applies to all people equally, whether they actually want to buy an assault weapon or not. Likewise, laws limiting marriage are equally applied to everyone regardless of sexual preference. I am no more or less constrained in my marriage choices than is any other man or woman in my state. That I have no interest in marrying another man in no way effects the fact that I am equally prohibited from doing so (or equally entitled to, depending on the law here...I'm not really sure what our state Constitution has to say on the subject).

And your statement about race is even more poorly thought out. You are talking about laws that explicitly set different standards and rights for different people. In case you've forgotten, it wasn't everyone who was relegated to the back of the bus, it was black people. For marriage law to be analogous, it would have to explicitly prohibit homosexuals from marrying someone of the same gender, while allowing heterosexuals to do so.

Assuming there actually are tremendous benefits under the law to being "married", it seems reasonable to me that a pair of elderly men or women might wish to be married under the law to receive those benefits even though they shared no sexual relationship. Anywhere that the law currently prevents homosexuals from marrying, it would also prevent these couples from doing so, without regard to their sexual preference. THE LAW APPLIES EQUALLY TO ALL.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 02:58 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
I think it was Scrat that said it, and I am paraphrasing here so bear with me...

I have the same rights to marry another man as any man in the nation. A gay man also has the same rights as I do to marry a woman.



Ahh I was looking for this nugget this morning.

Scrat's logic (and yours by agreement) is quite disingenuous.

Their desired right is not to marry the same sex that you choose to marry but for them to marry whom they choose.

By the twisted logic you've touted here segregation was all about equality.

"We don't go to your schoools and you don't go to ours."

"You don't drink from our water fountain and we won't drink from yours"

Quote:
How are our rights not equal?


One group is facing opposition in to their goal of marrying the people they love, the other is not.

Saying that they are free to marry people who are of a sex they are not even attracted to and therefore being afforded equal rights is disingenuous.


See, I think of it as "we must ALL drink from the same fountain" or "We must ALL attend the same school."

If that's not how it came out, that's what I meant.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 03:09 pm
Scrat wrote:
Craven - I'll skip calling you disingenuous and just assume you haven't really thought this through.


I didn't call you disingenuous. I called your argument disingenuous.

Your argument is a simplistic and Edited attempt at logic to assert an equality while ignoring both that it's an undesired equality as well as an unsuitable substitute for the desired equality.

Equality is not just about finding some word play that you can use to try to assert that it's equal.

It does not matter a whit that everyone is equally prohibited from marrying those of the same sex.

That's not equality. And it's not what they want.

There is inequality in that some are allowed to marry their chosen spouses and some aren't.

Some people can marry whom they desire and others can't.

That is inequality.

Saying that it's equality because they are free to marry persons they have no interest in marrying is disingenuous. Preference in a spouce is a big element in marriage. By your reasoning a willing marriage and a forced one are equal in merit because "both ahve the right to marry".

Rolling Eyes

Edited to remove abrasion unecessary to my point.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 03:13 pm
McGentrix wrote:

See, I think of it as "we must ALL drink from the same fountain" or "We must ALL attend the same school."

If that's not how it came out, that's what I meant.


Ok, then would you accept laws giving everyone the equal right only to marry within the same sex? Would you consider that "equal"?

Would you think you had the same rights as gays if you were only allowed to have sex with men?

Remember, this would apply "equally" to everyone. Everyone would only be allowed to have sex with someone of the same sex.

You know, all must sup from the same fountain and all.

Dunno about you, but I'd feel like I were getting a bum deal.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 03:27 pm
Try it this way:

Person A wants to do X.
Person B wants to do Y.

A rule that forces both to do X is equal in application but not inherently equal because of its inequality in regard to whose desires are allowed.

Yes there is equal application in the law, this does not mean the law fosters equality of choice.

Marriage is about choice, for some to have the right to marry their chosen spouse while others do not is not equality.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 03:39 pm
I would be all for gays being able to marry whomever they want. I am all for people marrying 2 or even 3 people at one time! It doesn't effect me one bit, heck, I don't even care if someone wants to marry their dog!

But, the current law says they can't, and until the current law is changed (and I hope it gets changed) the law is the law.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 03:39 pm
Craven, You're doing a darn good job of trying to explain simple truths, but I think some people's idea of "equality" will never meet the test of logic - as you've tried to explain over and over. I enjoy reading your posts, because they're not attacking 'my logic' for now. <smiles>
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 03:42 pm
McGent, You gotta admit that some laws on the books are stupid ones. The only way they will be changed is by taking action by the injured parties to win the consensus of the majority. This is exactly what the gays and lesbians are trying to do; to win equal rights and treatment under the law. I applaud their efforts.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 03:50 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I would be all for gays being able to marry whomever they want. I am all for people marrying 2 or even 3 people at one time! It doesn't effect me one bit, heck, I don't even care if someone wants to marry their dog!

But, the current law says they can't, and until the current law is changed (and I hope it gets changed) the law is the law.


Well I disagree, I do not think someone should be able to marry a dog. Mr. Green

I suspected that you don't have much of a problem with this, and I suspect Scrat doesn't either and that these discussions are just the frutition of what has become a partisan agenda.

But do you think said laws are inherently equal?
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 03:55 pm
Craven, the founders never intended the Constitution to logical to equality, they intended it to be logical to the Federalists' equality - thus, the immediate need of the Bill of Rights, not to mention the need for the centuries for changed views of equalities. I take a position of true equality and detest the need to pass laws to legislate rights.

Then, to pass an amendment to impair rights is detestable......
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 04:01 pm
Scrat wrote:
And your statement about race is even more poorly thought out. You are talking about laws that explicitly set different standards and rights for different people. In case you've forgotten, it wasn't everyone who was relegated to the back of the bus, it was black people.


It's not everyone who's going to be banned from marrying the person they love - it's only gay people.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 04:03 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
Some people can marry whom they desire and others can't.

That is inequality.


Oh, I see that Craven already made the exact same point.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2004 04:26 pm
nimh wrote:
Talking of primaries ...

I saw this useful little overview of the various races and ballot initiatives at stake apart from the Dem presidential contenders in today's elections ...

One that struck me was this one, in California:

Quote:
Recall election -- A new prosecutor fighting big timber in California redwood country faced a tough recall race. Humboldt County District Attorney Paul Gallegos sued Pacific Lumber, claiming it submitted fraudulent environmental impact data that enabled the company to reap millions in profits. The recall campaign was funded by Pacific Lumber.


Someone remind me how that one went, when the numbers have come in? Thanks ...


I reminded myself ...

Measure F - Should Paul Gallegos be recalled from office of District Attorney?

NO 30716 61.21%
YES 19464 38.79%
Total Votes 50180

Quote:
N. Calif. DA survives recall election [AP]

EUREKA, Calif. -- A prosecutor in California redwood country easily survived a recall election Tuesday that was largely funded by a lumber company he sued.

With all precincts reporting, 61 percent of voters decided to keep Humboldt County District Attorney Paul V. Gallegos.

The Pacific Lumber Co., through its corporate parent Maxxam Inc. of Houston, contributed $229,000 to the recall effort.

The company, which employs 800 people in the county, and other Gallegos detractors accused the district attorney of being too lenient with criminals, too friendly with radical environmental activists and too accommodating to marijuana smokers who say they use the drug for medicinal purposes.

The district attorney's supporters contended the recall was retaliation for the lawsuit Gallegos filed against Pacific Lumber soon after he took office last year.

The county claims that the company submitted false data for a 1999 environmental impact report that allowed Pacific Lumber to harvest 100,000 trees and bring in an extra $40 million a year. The logging caused landslides and resulted in environmental damage, according to the lawsuit.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 01:13 pm
Some bad news about J Kerry.
*************************


Kerr's Shifts: Nuanced Ideas or Flip-Flops?
March 6, 2004
By DAVID M. HALBFINGER

BOSTON, March 5 - When Senator John Kerry was speaking to
Jewish leaders a few days ago, he said Israel's
construction of a barrier between it and Palestinian
territories was a legitimate act of self-defense. But in
October, he told an Arab-American group that it was
"provocative and counterproductive" and a "barrier to
peace."

On Feb. 5, Mr. Kerry reacted to Massachusetts' highest
court's decision legalizing same-sex marriages by saying,
"I personally believe the court is dead wrong." But when
asked on Feb. 24 why he believed the decision was not
correct, he shot back, "I didn't say it wasn't."

Throughout his campaign, Mr. Kerry has shown a knack for
espousing both sides of divisive issues. Earlier in the
race he struggled to square his vote to authorize the use
of force in Iraq with his loud criticism of the war and his
eventual vote against $87 billion for military operations
and reconstruction.

Now with the general-election campaign under way, President
Bush and Republicans are already attacking Mr. Kerry for
precisely this characteristic. In California this week, the
president said Mr. Kerry had "been in Washington long
enough to take both sides on just about every issue." And
on Friday the Republican National Committee e-mailed to
reporters an Internet boxing game called "Kerry vs. Kerry"
designed, the committee said, to highlight the senator's
"multiple positions on multiple issues."

The e-mail included a list of Mr. Kerry's stances on 30
issues, including many of the examples that were researched
in preparation for this article.

In fact, this trait, perhaps a natural one for a diplomat's
son, seems to have been ingrained in Mr. Kerry's
personality as far back as when he volunteered for duty in
Vietnam after expressing doubts about the war as a college
student - and then returned home and helped lead the
opposition to the war.

Some aides and close associates say Mr. Kerry's fluidity is
the mark of an intellectual who grasps the subtleties of
issues, inhabits their nuances and revels in the
deliberative process. They call him a free-thinker who
defies stereotypes. Others close to him say his
often-public agonizing - over whether to opt out of the
system of spending caps and matching money in this
campaign, or whether to run against Al Gore in 2000 - can
be exasperating.

And some Democratic strategists worry that Mr. Kerry is
still an unfamiliar figure to many voters, and that these
early attacks show just how vulnerable he is to being
defined by the Republicans as indecisive or politically
expedient.

"If Kerry fails to define himself as someone who's been
consistent on values, on foreign policy, on domestic
issues, then the Bush team will have succeeded in putting
him in a corner," said Donna Brazile, who ran Mr. Gore's
campaign in 2000. "They want to get to his integrity and
his character, and they will use his voting record and
previous statements to undermine that he can be trusted."

Other Democrats suggest that the areas in which Mr. Kerry
has showed indecisiveness or tried to split the difference
are the same ones in which most Americans are conflicted.

"Clearly he is trying to walk a very fine line on extremely
divisive social issues like gay marriage and the Patriot
Act," said Ron Klain, another Gore adviser in 2000. "These
are issues where the political terrain is changing very
rapidly, and he is trying to stay in the middle. And I
think he's walking the tightrope on those issues, and doing
a pretty good job of navigating it so far."

Sometimes, Mr. Kerry's stances seem to be well-thought
political strategy. At no time was this more evident than
the day when he spoke against opponents of gun control in
an Iowa barn, then strode out to his car, unwrapped an old
shotgun, and went off to shoot pheasant. The message was
that hunters could be for gun control.

Other times he may tailor his stands to an audience or even
run away from past positions. When Gen. Wesley K. Clark
pointed to a 1992 remark by Mr. Kerry calling affirmative
action "an inherently limited and divisive program," the
senator denied he had ever said that.

Sometimes Mr. Kerry seems to embody contradictions. When he
lost for Congress in 1972, went to law school and became a
prosecutor, he stunned some of his colleagues in the
antiwar movement who thought he shared their anti-authority
sentiment, sharpened by Vietnam and Watergate.

"A lot of liberal Democrats in Massachusetts thought, What
is this about?" said Ron Rosenblith, who met Mr. Kerry in
the antiwar movement and has worked for him over the years
as an aide, campaign manager and consultant. "They didn't
see it as consistent."

Of course, it is just some of these aspects of Mr. Kerry -
hunter, prosecutor, deficit hawk, war veteran - which now
give him an answer to suggestions that he is nothing more
than a "Massachusetts liberal" in the mold of Michael S.
Dukakis, whom he served as lieutenant governor.

"He doesn't fit into any neat pigeon holes," said Mr.
Kerry's younger brother, Cameron, his closest adviser.
"He's complex. So what?"

Those who have known him a long time say Mr. Kerry is a
creature of the gray areas in politics and policy, asking
endless questions about all the angles, playing the devil's
advocate until his aides are exhausted, arguing as if with
himself until the last possible minute.

"There's indoor John and outdoor John," said Jonathan
Winer, a Washington lawyer and former State Department
official who worked for Mr. Kerry from 1983 to 1994.

"Indoor John is thoughtful, works all this through, is
nuanced, and so deeply into the process that you can get
impatient," Mr. Winer said. "Outdoor John is a man of
action. There'd be a point where, Boom! and go. Once it
happened, the dialogue was over, and you wouldn't always
know which way he was going to go."

Mr. Kerry's explanations for a number of the recent stances
Republicans are branding as flip-flops have a common
thread. He voted for the Iraq resolution but criticizes the
war because, he says, the president "broke his promises" to
exhaust the diplomatic process and use force only as a last
resort. He voted for the education legislation known as the
No Child Left Behind law but lambastes President Bush now
because, Mr. Kerry says, he withheld promised additional
money for education.

And on Friday, he said he had criticized the Israeli wall
before the Arab-American group in October because its path
was then expected to deviate widely from Israel's border
into West Bank villages - though he conceded he had not
made the distinction clear at the time.

Mr. Kerry also voted for the antiterrorism law known as the
USA Patriot Act, which he has since all but repudiated,
telling Democratic audiences that the best thing Congress
put into that law was a sunset clause that will make it
expire next year, unless Congress renews it. He has likened
the law's use against Americans to the repression of
Afghans by the Taliban.

But he also says the law was necessary when it was passed,
as a response to the Sept. 11 attacks. And as recently as
last week, he went further, telling a group of newspaper
editors and reporters, "Of course I support it," before
adding that his objections were mainly to the way Attorney
General John Ashcroft had been "abusing" it.

People who have worked closely with him in the Senate say
that Mr. Kerry tends to split differences. A longtime
friend and aide put it this way: "On some major issues
there are yes-but votes and no-but votes. He sees a lot of
them as yes-but."

A "yes-but" can also be revisited. Mr. Kerry's critics have
cited his position on the death penalty as evidence that
even his core convictions can be bent to his political
ambition. He was a longtime opponent of capital punishment
but came out in favor of an exception for terrorists after
the Sept. 11 attacks.

Mr. Rosenblith said Mr. Kerry had been thinking about the
issue for years. He recalled that Mr. Kerry had terrorists
on his mind when the subject arose in his re-election
campaign against Gov. William F. Weld in 1996. "Even in
'96, he thought that was a close call," Mr. Rosenblith
said, remembering an elaborate discussion of the issue. He
said Mr. Kerry decided against a death penalty for
terrorists at that time because he thought it would keep
other countries from extraditing terrorism suspects to the
United States.

Indeed, Mr. Kerry said in a debate that Mr. Weld's support
for the death penalty "would amount to a
terrorist-protection policy."

What changed Mr. Kerry's mind, Mr. Rosenblith said, was
that after Sept. 11, 2001, "other countries are far less
likely to say, `No, we're not going to turn over this
person to you.' "

"The world looks at terrorism very differently," Mr.
Rosenblith said.

Mr. Winer, the former aide, who worked with Mr. Kerry on
terrorism and many other issues, described Mr. Kerry's
complexity as right for the times.

"Between the moral clarity, black and white, good and evil
of George Bush that distorts and gets reality wrong," he
said, "and someone who quotes a French philosopher, André
Gide, saying, `Don't try to understand me too much,' I'd
let Americans decide which in the end is closer to what
they need in a president, in a complex world where if you
get it really wrong there are enormous consequences."


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/06/politics/campaign/06KERR.html?ex=1079579344&ei=1&en=38de3bf0d9bff04b

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 05:49 pm
c.i. ...

bad, yes

news, no.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 07:02 pm
Yeah, I know.

I had a thought, recently, about how ABBs are just the new ABC's. A lot of why Bush got into office is because of how many people passionately hated Clinton. They didn't necessarily love Bush, they just hated Clinton.

I certainly don't love Kerry, and never have. I will vote for him, and am satisfied to see him as the nominee-apparent, because I think he has the best chance of ousting Bush.

How long has that been going on? I remember voting FOR Clinton -- I thought he was great. I didn't like Bush the elder much, but I thought Clinton was just fantastic, and I was thrilled when he won. Was that the election, was that Clinton, or was it that I was 22?
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 07:04 pm
IMO that was Clinton + a less polarized and partisan time.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 07:30 pm
Soz...good evening:
You made a comment a few minutes ago that a lot of folks voted for Mr Bush because they hated Mr Clinton. Were you talking 1992, 1996 or 2000?
I live in a state (Virginia) that typically goes for the Repubs (but we do have a Dem Gov). The "anyone but Bush" refrain is pretty prominent here. Not probably enough to Kerry the state...rjb
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 07:33 pm
I was talking about 2000 -- "A lot of why Bush got into office..."

"Kerry the state" -- cute. :-)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 08:13 pm
sozobe wrote:
How long has that been going on? I remember voting FOR Clinton -- I thought he was great. I didn't like Bush the elder much, but I thought Clinton was just fantastic, and I was thrilled when he won. Was that the election, was that Clinton, or was it that I was 22?

<smiles> That's a cute way to put it ...

I musta been more jaded already (tho also only 21), cause I can remember thinking about Clinton, like, ah well, it'll have to do ...

He was also the party apparatus's choice, wasn't he? Or so I thought, at the time ... (I think my sympathies were more with Tsongas, or even Brown ... that was '92, right?)

oh but I remember his victory speech and being surprised about how excited I got about it, that particular 5 AM in the morning - it was goood! :-D
0 Replies
 
 

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