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2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2003 02:12 pm
I found another link that might be of some interest.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2246037.stm

c.i.
0 Replies
 
trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2003 02:24 pm
dyslexia wrote:
no comment but i did find this:
GULF WAR VETERANS ASSOCIATION QUESTIONS WHO STARTED THE OIL WELL FIRES IN KUWAIT.

For the past six years, the American Gulf War Veterans Association have received numerous reports from veterans stating that US forces were responsible for the setting of the oil well fires at the end of the Gulf War. These testimonies are now being taken very seriously in light of recent revelations of the events that occurred during the first Gulf War.

i do not know the valitidy of the source
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0302/S00215.htm

dys - Thanks for the citation. I would point people's attention to this paragraph:
Quote:
One veteran has now stepped forward and given a detailed account of how he and others in special teams, moved forward of the front, (behind enemy lines ahead of US forces) and then set charges on the well heads. "We were mustered into the briefing tent at which point a gentleman whom I first had thought to be an American began to brief us on the operation. I was concerned because he was not wearing a US uniform and insignias."

Now, is anyone here attempting to argue that this happened based on the claim of a single gulf war veteran? I'm personally not inclined to give a single person credibility in a situation where many, many people had to be involved. Of course, anything is possible, but without further corroboration I don't think it probable that this one man's story is true.

But again, thank you dys for taking the time to provide a citation.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2003 02:32 pm
Dyslexia -- I have a feeling that if fourteen sworn angels swooped down with god's word on a tablet confirming US skullduggery, someone would try to convince you they were really Communist light aircraft...
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2003 02:34 pm
the RED baron?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2003 02:46 pm
http://www.spidersmill.com/gwvrl/Chrono.htm

Quote:
1991

Jan. 16 - U.S.-led coalition launches air war against Iraq.
104 chemical/biological/nuclear sites bombed releasing toxins during the air war.

Jan. 20 - Logs from the American military headquarters in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, show evidence of chemical weapon fallout in northern Saudi Arabia after allied bombing raid on Iraqi positions in Kuwait.

Jan. 24 - 732 oil fires set by retreating Iraqi's.

Jan. 29 - Iraq crosses border into Saudi Arabia, Marines engaged in heavy fighting.

Jan-Feb - Various units of coalition forces, including Czech chemical weapons detection teams, report chemical alarms sounding at multiple times and places during allied bombing raids.

Feb. 24 - Ground operations begin.

Feb. 24 - Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, the allied commander, calls initial reports of biological or chemical weapons "bogus."

Feb. 27 - Allied troops take control of Kuwait after 100-hour ground war.

Feb.- Army officials tell reporters the Iraqi army has started to distribute artillery shells laden with lethal chemicals to forward-based units.

Feb. 28 - Cease-fire announced.


A month's worth of inconvenience to the US Sabotage Theory, to my mind. While I admit hearsay is not evidence, I am closely acquainted with a number of folks who were there, among whom happens to be my son. Their accounts ring truer to me than do those of some others, and to my mind, their credentials, whether personal, academic, or professional, are more satisfactorily disclosed and established than are those of some others.



timber
0 Replies
 
trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2003 02:47 pm
Tartarin wrote:
Dyslexia -- I have a feeling that if fourteen sworn angels swooped down with god's word on a tablet confirming US skullduggery, someone would try to convince you they were really Communist light aircraft...

Of course you are right. We should definitely believe absolutely the word of a single man with no corroboration. What was I thinking? Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2003 02:51 pm
trespassers will wrote:
Tartarin wrote:
Dyslexia -- I have a feeling that if fourteen sworn angels swooped down with god's word on a tablet confirming US skullduggery, someone would try to convince you they were really Communist light aircraft...

Of course you are right. We should definitely believe absolutely the word of a single man with no corroboration. What was I thinking? Rolling Eyes


Why not? You obviously swallow everything your president says with little of this high standard of verification.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2003 03:14 pm
Quote:
Tartarin wrote:
Dyslexia -- I have a feeling that if fourteen sworn angels swooped down with god's word on a tablet confirming US skullduggery, someone would try to convince you they were really Communist light aircraft...


And I have the feeling that whatever conspiracy theory is floated there are more than a few people who would be happy to believe and repeat it.
0 Replies
 
Marc
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 03:37 am
Ya sorry about the gulf war fire thing.....I just saw it mentioned a few places and wanted to see if any people had any information about it. It's not something I believe but like the other guy said...I just wanted to throw some info around and see what came back.

Thanks.

I made all the info from this thread and the articles I had into an essay

http://www.geocities.com/vancouverguy_21_23/politicsforumdemocrats.doc

(might have to cut and paste the link for it to work)

While you may not want to read it there are many links to articles at the end.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 08:12 am
I read your article, Marc (and Welcome to A2K, in case I haven't said that to you before). Well done ... a scholarly work. I enjoyed reading it, and I saved it for later reference. Thanks. I'm looking forward to seeing more of your interactions on these forums.

And no need to apologize, there's nothing wrong with floating a rumor as long as it is identified as nothing more than a rumor. Some rumors prove out, most don't. The few that do prove out make it worthwhile to research them all to some extent. Often the difference between the tabloids and the mainstream press is that the tabloids simply run the story, while the mainstream press will research it, verify it, and substantiate it before floating it (often ... not always). Funny how a few phonecalls or internet queries can make the difference between "News" and "Hysteria", isn't it?



timber
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 08:45 am
Unfortunately, Timber, even when one does remark, "I can't verify this but I'm reporting it in case anyone else knows about it..." (my usual caveat), the sidewinders zero in. I would hate to see people drift away or pull their punches because of that. As for "verification" by the mainstream press -- these days "verification" seems to mean checking to see if the establishment approves publication. That's why the overseas press is so useful!
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 09:09 am
I'm with you there Tartarin. In case you haven't noticed, I often drag "The Foreign Press" into the fray ... Most of which I consider just as "Mainstream" as any major US Daily or TV Network. I do drag up obscure things once in a while, but I generally offer a caveat re the reliability or agenda of a source if it is pertinent.
Rumors have a life oftheir own sometimes. Lots of folks so devoutly wish to believe a thing they will leap at any apparent justification for their position. Governments and other "sources of Influence" are not devoid of the gullible, or the rabidly agenda driven either. Skepticism is a healthy virtue.



timber
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 09:30 am
I think most of us have learned, by now, how reliable the various sources are. You kind of have to judge for yourself on the others, and that's the way it should be. If you had a chance to read the excerpt I posted on the lead-up to Gulf War 1, you can see the modus operandi of the administration vis-a-vis the media and use that as a kind of template for judging "mainstream" coverage now (though I think it's gotten a lot worse these days). My attitude is QUESTION EVERYTHING!!
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 10:16 am
White House hopeful John Kerry accused President Bush yesterday of bungling the buildup to war by failing to create a broad coalition to forcibly boot Iraqi strongman Saddam Hussein.

"I think the administration has complicated its own predicament by very bad diplomacy and an absence of leadership," Kerry said.

"If it takes more inspections to get another country to come closer to your position and to be supportive, then take the time to do that," Kerry said.

N.Y. Daily News
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 10:47 am
Gollee P Diddie, are you gonna fall for that soft, meatless, toothless diplomacy stuff when we could be out thar a-killin' and a-whoopin'?

BTW, I just heard on the radio that in our home state, it is illegal to carry pliers in your pocket. Would you care to speculate why? (Giggle.)
0 Replies
 
trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 10:47 am
snood wrote:
trespassers will wrote:
Tartarin wrote:
Dyslexia -- I have a feeling that if fourteen sworn angels swooped down with god's word on a tablet confirming US skullduggery, someone would try to convince you they were really Communist light aircraft...

Of course you are right. We should definitely believe absolutely the word of a single man with no corroboration. What was I thinking? Rolling Eyes


Why not? You obviously swallow everything your president says with little of this high standard of verification.

Anyone with the ability to read and comprehend above a kindergarten level can see for themselves that you are once again full of crap and out of your depth. Run along now, snood. The adults are trying to have a conversation.
0 Replies
 
trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 10:49 am
Marc wrote:
Ya sorry about the gulf war fire thing.....I just saw it mentioned a few places and wanted to see if any people had any information about it. It's not something I believe but like the other guy said...I just wanted to throw some info around and see what came back.

Thanks.

Of course that's completely cool. I would tend to offer it as a question rather than a statement, if you are looking for corroboration of something, but that's just a suggestion.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 10:50 am
timber,

Please help out a poor befuddled mind here. Your quote below from several pages back:


"1991

Jan. 16 - U.S.-led coalition launches air war against Iraq.
104 chemical/biological/nuclear sites bombed releasing toxins during the air war.

Jan. 20 - Logs from the American military headquarters in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, show evidence of chemical weapon fallout in northern Saudi Arabia after allied bombing raid on Iraqi positions in Kuwait.

Jan. 24 - 732 oil fires set by retreating Iraqi's.

Jan. 29 - Iraq crosses border into Saudi Arabia, Marines engaged in heavy fighting.

Jan-Feb - Various units of coalition forces, including Czech chemical weapons detection teams, report chemical alarms sounding at multiple times and places during allied bombing raids.

Feb. 24 - Ground operations begin.

Feb. 24 - Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, the allied commander, calls initial reports of biological or chemical weapons "bogus."

Feb. 27 - Allied troops take control of Kuwait after 100-hour ground war.

Feb.- Army officials tell reporters the Iraqi army has started to distribute artillery shells laden with lethal chemicals to forward-based units.

Feb. 28 - Cease-fire announced. "

Is this supposed to reflect actual reality-based reporting, or that of rumors purported to be facts? For instance, I had no prior idea that Iraqi soldiers actually crossed the border into Saudi Arabia to fight, or that chemical weaponry had been successfully employed in the theater.
0 Replies
 
trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2003 10:58 am
Tartarin wrote:
Unfortunately, Timber, even when one does remark, "I can't verify this but I'm reporting it in case anyone else knows about it..." (my usual caveat), the sidewinders zero in. I would hate to see people drift away or pull their punches because of that. As for "verification" by the mainstream press -- these days "verification" seems to mean checking to see if the establishment approves publication. That's why the overseas press is so useful!

I would like to see you offer us a single example of where ANYONE has challenged a comment offered with a caveat such as you suggest above. Just one. ??? Rolling Eyes

What I see happening, and have done myself, is to ask (politely) for a citation or source when something is offered as "I heard that" or some other unqualified rumor that gets dropped in here. And again for those who tend to react more than read--the issue isn't whether anyone is doing anything wrong, the issue is wanting to know what is true and what is not where possible, what can be verified when possible, and what appears to be baseless.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2003 09:15 pm
excerpted from Salon.com:

Democrats have a brand-new dilemma over the looming Iraq invasion: What should they say -- especially the half-dozen or so camped out in Iowa right now, crusading for the '04 presidential nomination -- once war breaks out?

Even some antiwar Democrats are insisting they won't criticize the Bush administration once the fighting begins. Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, who's staked out a complex pro-disarming Saddam, anti-unilateral-war approach to the mess, says he'll hit the mute button immediately. Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, a more unequivocal war opponent than Kerry, told the Boston Globe he's not sure he'll keep it up once the shooting starts. War critics like former Sen. Gary Hart and Florida Sen. Bob Graham may postpone official announcements of their candidacies if war begins, as expected, in the next couple of weeks. Only Rep. Dennis Kucinich and former Sen. Carol Mosely-Braun, who are not given much chance of winning the nomination, have had the courage to tell reporters that they'll stick with their antiwar message come war.

This timidity is Reason No. 392 for the political question vexing Democrats right now: Why is it that polls show President Bush losing the '04 election to an "Unnamed Democrat," but beating all the Democrats who are currently in the race? Everyone knows this president is supremely vulnerable. He's plundered the surplus and pushed an economic policy that has arguably worsened the recession. He's angered most of our allies and is now on the verge of a potentially disastrous war whose rationale changes every day. His poll numbers dip almost daily, too.

But Bush can still probably beat any of the Democrats lined up against him, because no one yet has shown the charisma or the courage to break out of the pack. And otherwise admirable candidates like Kerry and Dean seem to be faltering in this early test of political integrity.

Silence of the Dems
0 Replies
 
 

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