0
   

2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 01:49 pm
Laughing
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 02:06 pm
Looks too much like Adolph sans the moustache.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 02:36 pm
http://aacaw.org/red%20pill/art/Adolph-Bush.jpg
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 03:32 pm
I'm going to fall down laughing if the right tries to portray Dean as Fascist and big government.

Fall. Down. Laughing.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 03:38 pm
"They hate us for our freedom!"

http://www.bartcop.com/bu-mad.jpg

"We gotta kill 'em all!"
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 03:47 pm
Dean doesn't look scary to me there.......I think I feel a little turned on.....such power, oh boy.

But it is a good question that Tartarin and Scrat bring up. What would constitute fair voting, how can we get there, and how would we know? I wonder if there's not some way to test for accuracy in these elections.......something like exit polling maybe, just as a test of how accurate the voting tally was, where there are problems, a study about what went wrong maybe. Ummmm, let's see.........what I would really like to see is a voting method that contains some steps for guaranteeing accuracy. Some feed back to the voter, while he/she is still in the booth about for whom s/he voted and if the ballot had a problem that needed to be corrected in order to be counted. Hopefully this feedback could be available so that the voter could still correct any problem with his/her ballot. The way voting is now conducted, it's anyone's guess whether or not the vote a person went to so much trouble to cast has been counted at all........or counted in the right column. There really should be more controls, I think.

And I agree with Tartarin, the Dems should take this up as a campaign issue........it's perfect.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 11:38 pm
Lola - I'm not sure exit polling would work... lots of people have admitted to intentionally lying in exit polls. I guess they figure it's nobody's business who they voted for.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2003 05:55 am
Scrat, I cant talk for Tart (and I'm definitely not out to refer back to 2000 in any way), but I can imagine that any system which would leave a paper trail that can be recounted in full when the result is challenged would feel a lot safer than a voting-machine system which can merely "spit out the same data as before, flawed or not".

Thats not to say you have to go back to paper and pencil; better (use of the) software and control on the use of the software would do it.

In the thread she mentioned PDiddie posted an interesting article on it, from which I took the "spit out the same data as before, flawed or not" bit. He was making the case that (massive) election fraud has been going on, which I'm not buying, but the article did present some real enough sounding issues. This was basically the bottom line bit:

Quote:
The vote count was not conducted by state elections officials, but by the private company that sold Georgia the voting machines in the first place, under a strict trade-secrecy contract that made it not only difficult but actually illegal -- on pain of stiff criminal penalties -- for the state to touch the equipment or examine the proprietary software to ensure the machines worked properly. There was not even a paper trail to follow up. The machines were fitted with thermal printing devices that could theoretically provide a written record of voters' choices, but these were not activated. Consequently, recounts were impossible. Had Diebold Inc, the manufacturer, been asked to review the votes, all it could have done was programme the computers to spit out the same data as before, flawed or not.

Astonishingly, these are the terms under which America's top three computer voting machine manufacturers - Diebold, Sequoia and Election Systems and Software (ES&S) - have sold their products to election officials around the country.


See http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=445769#445769 for full post and subsequent replies.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2003 06:24 am
Lola wrote:
what I would really like to see is a voting method that contains some steps for guaranteeing accuracy. Some feed back to the voter, while he/she is still in the booth about for whom s/he voted and if the ballot had a problem that needed to be corrected in order to be counted.

I think a pop-up window should do it: "You selected candidate Firstname Lastname. To cast your vote, press 'OK', to change your selection, press 'Change' ". The "Change" button then leads you back to the original menu of candidates.

To ensure that the output of the voting machine equals the input of the voter, I'd publish the software that drives the voting machine under an open-source license so everyone can review it for bugs and correct any bugs he might find. Publishing hardware documentation might help, too.

But in the end of the day, any procedure for voting only establishes a probability, short of certainty, that one candidate has won. For all practical purposes, the the 2000 presidential election in Florida was a statistical draw, and no one can rule these out in the future. On the contrary -- the close races that cause statistical draws may well be getting more common as politicians get better at finding out what voters want and promising it to them. With that in mind, I think we need better laws to deal with statistical draws in elections.

Apropos paper trail: I have never seen a system that has all of the following three properties. 1) It leaves a comprehensive enough paper trail to document its own accuracy 2) keeps the vote secret, and 3) is more efficient than going back to paper and pencil. I don't think paper trails are the answer to buggy, and possibly fraudulent, voting machines.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2003 08:00 am
How about some candidate news for a switch:

Quote:


Kerry Vows to Reverse Bush's Policies
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2003 10:02 am
Quote:

That's not a reversal of Bush's foreign policy. It's a continuation of "Let's beat somebody up, whether or not that helps against terrorism". Kerry has just changed the value of the "somebody" variable, and suggests a trade war with Arabians as an alternative to the shooting kind. This places Kerry about halfway between George Bush and rational policy -- which is progress in a way.

Independent of that, "I am like George Bush, only less so" doesn't strike me as a motto that inspires Democrats, let alone the electorate.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2003 11:14 am
Thomas wrote:
That's not a reversal of Bush's foreign policy. It's a continuation of "Let's beat somebody up, whether or not that helps against terrorism". Kerry has just changed the value of the "somebody" variable, [..] This places Kerry about halfway between George Bush and rational policy


Don't quite get this point. Hasn't one of the prime arguments against the Bush foreign policy been that it was mistargeted? It attacked Iraq, even tho Saddam didnt have anything to do with Al-Qaeda, out of (fill in: resentment, obsession, lust for oil, etc). This has worsened the security situation by creating an extra haven of terrorists instead of properly dealing with the existing ones - Saudi Arabia, for example.

Thats kinda the line of argument thats been proposed again and again. Kerry merely rephrases it. And why not?
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2003 11:22 am
Thomas - I think a system that gave you feedback such as you suggest would be a good start. I'd also like to have the option of printing a receipt showing my choices if I choose to do so. Those who preferred privacy would not be forced to take a paper copy of their ballot, but those who wanted one could have one.

Of course, these could never, should never be used for the purpose of recounting the votes. In the end, any electronic system can only "spit out the same data as before". The best cure we have for the question of whether the correct choices were entered into the database is a feedback mechanism at the time the choices are made. Then bluehairs in Florida might be able to say, "Buchanan? No, I don't want to vote for Buchanan." Cool
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2003 11:23 am
nimh wrote:
Don't quite get this point.

My point rests on the assumption that there's no reason to believe that an embargo against Saudia Arabia would help in the fight against terrorism. On the contrary, we have a lot of reasons to believe that the economic hardship caused by an embargo would make people more, not less willing to let Al Queda recruit them. So Kerry's announcement isn't a sensible anti-terrorism policy. Just a macho pose to make him look tough in the media.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2003 11:33 am
And to capitalize on the great "why aren't we invading Saudi Arabia" drek heard from both Democrats and Republicans.

Democrats said that to highlight that Bush is targeting unrelated countries under the umbrella "war on terror" goal. They also brought up comparisons with NK and such.

IMO, it's stupid. It's not like it makes sense to target NK or SA so using the point that it makes more sense than to target Iraq is counterproductive.

Attacking Saudi Arabia (economically or militarily) and attacking North Korea are bankrupt policies and just because it makes more sense than the attack on Iraq did doesn't make it a worthwhile goal.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2003 11:38 am
To 'fight' the 'war on terror', you would have to attack every country in the world, following that logic. In war or whatever you wish to term it, you pick your battles, as in life.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2003 11:47 am
Frankly I don't think attacking nations has much to do with the war on terror at all.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2003 11:53 am
I don't either.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2003 11:54 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
Frankly I don't think attacking nations has much to do with the war on terror at all.

What would you do about a hypothetical nation which clearly supported terrorism and resisted all lesser efforts to get them to change? I personally think there are a lot of things we can do short of attacking Saudi Arabia (one of which was taking Saddam out in Iraq) to get them to change their ways.
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2003 11:58 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
And to capitalize on the great "why aren't we invading Saudi Arabia" drek heard from both Democrats and Republicans.

Democrats said that to highlight that Bush is targeting unrelated countries under the umbrella "war on terror" goal. They also brought up comparisons with NK and such.

IMO, it's stupid. It's not like it makes sense to target NK or SA so using the point that it makes more sense than to target Iraq is counterproductive.

Attacking Saudi Arabia (economically or militarily) and attacking North Korea are bankrupt policies and just because it makes more sense than the attack on Iraq did doesn't make it a worthwhile goal.


Amen....
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 05/15/2024 at 10:32:28