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2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 07:41 am
It's too bad I almost agree with you, George. That way I can only quibble about minor points.

georgeob1 wrote:
1) Life and the world situation can change fairly quickly.

I agree. For example, high-powered missile defense looks kind of stupid in a world where weirdos armed with box cutters can fly commercial plains into buildings. But again, uncertainty cuts both ways. America has an edge in defense spending mostly because the rest of the world trusts it, and lets it. It isn't clear whether an increase in America's defense budget would strengthen America's power in the world. It can just as well erode other nations trust, and make them expand their defense spending too. In this case America would have started an arms race that benefits nobody, and doesn't increase its relative power.

Quote:
4) We cannot control the actions of potential rivals, and history strongly suggests that some will emerge. This problem of riding the tiger is real.

You cannot control it, but you can influence it. For example, maintaining the expectation that America plays by the rules greatly reduces a foreign nation's demand for defense spending. This serves America's selfish interests. A big part of my unhappiness with the Bush administration is that it sees very clearly the advantages of military power, but not the advantages of other nations' trust. It's not just about the UN. Consider his WTO-illegal steel tarrifs, his blackmailing of Bayer in the Anthrax situation, his China policy, and other such things.

Quote:
5) We are paying the bill for completed and continuing operations in Afghanistan and Iraq and replenishing our stocks of weapons expended in them. Beyond that there is little or no growth.

Point acknowledged. But while Afghanistan was a necessity in the war on terror, Iraq was a choice. You and I disagree whether the choice was right or wrong. But it was a choice, so it's a meaningful part of the growth in America's military spending.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 08:08 am
Lola, I just gotta observe, having some familiarity with the matter, that it takes a certain amount of disingenuousness for an adult female to attend a private party of mostly young, active-duty fighter pilots, in a Las Vegas hotel, and to then express outrage at being subjected to puerile locker room behavior. I don't condone that sort of behavior, but if you're gonna crawl in the pen with the hogs, you're gonna get dirty.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 08:57 am
Actually, it's the women who should have been brought up on charges for shoving their tits into some innocent sailor's paws. Let's get our blame targeted in the right direction, for goodness sake.

lola

george will continue to refuse to differentiate on quality and on magnitude. george will not, for example, EVER go to the trouble of really researching the subject of the impeachment and all that preceded it, though the information is readily available and well documented. He won't because the unavoidable conclusion is not one he can entertain. Sorry george, this is simply true. It is where you demonstrate an intellectual cowardice that continues to disappoint me. Timber, sorry, you as well.

Two links here (the first I posted elsewhere):
- a chart showing elements found in typical thought control as demonstrated in cults. Note the correspondences with posts on these threads which continue to support this adminstration, regardless of its actualy history (ironically, this is on a site put up by an evangelical group, but they've clearly drawn from Hoffer)...
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~revive/thought.html

the second is a piece on a conservative fellow who I do quite like, though disagreeing with him about half the time...
http://www.observer.com/pages/story.asp?ID=8202
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 09:03 am
There is something so neanderthal about your comments -- so much so that I can hardly believe you live in this century and consider yourselves a civilized American. But the bottom line is, if even you admit these guys behave like "hogs," then why get so pissed off when we point this out about the military in other contexts? Perhaps your neanderthalism and their hoggishness says more about the military to the rest of us than all the waving flags and hype you seem to fall for.

And look, while you're at it (to use Blatham's image!), at all those dumb-broad nations putting their tits in the Pentagon's hands. They deserve the results, right?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 09:40 am
timber

Your above response disturbs me more than any of yours on politics (to which I really often have a diametral opinion).
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 09:52 am
The behavior of the males involved was reprehensible ... no question or argument, Wholly inappropriate under any circumstances. None the less, the nature and setting of the incidents, and the well established reputation of the principals, leave no room for surprise that such would happen. I don't endorse it ... I just note it. As I said, if you're gonna crawl in the pen with the hogs, you're gonna get dirty. I'm not much for hangin' out with the hogs ... I know how they behave, and it just isn't my idea of entertainment.
It is nice to wish young, energetic, macho types behaved more like respected good-will ambassadors, and carefully considered their every action in respect to its meanings and consequences. It is stupid to assume that ever will be so. If you'd rather not be there, don't go there.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 10:14 am
My memory takes me to a discussion with a family member who served in Vietnam and who isn't a "hog," and who was often as scared of his own side as he was of the other. He was, of course, in the minority, and one has to wonder about the extent to which these behaviors are encouraged in the military and not shrugged off as you do, Timber, by writing that they cannot be expected to act responsibly: "It is nice to wish young, energetic, macho types behaved more like respected good-will ambassadors, and carefully considered their every action in respect to its meanings and consequences. It is stupid to assume that ever will be so. If you'd rather not be there, don't go there."

In my view, this is one of the more important reasons for strict scrutiny and control of the military than I've seen stated lately. It might help our nation's image in the Phillipines and other countries where atrocities have been committed and glossed over. If military can be made to behave themselves, as they evidently were in their recent diplomatic stopover in Vietnam, they can be made to behave themselves when they are at home and partying.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 11:01 am
Yeah, I wonder to this day why those dumb broads thought that there was a place for them at the Air Force Academy. They knew what they were in for and that rape was one of the outcomes. Besides, in a war situation, it is every man for himself and if you can find a women - so much the better. After all, it's her fault - right??????????
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 11:52 am
Late wakeup after a wonderful evening with brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews and both sons. Wife & #2 daughter-in-law are in Germany visiting the Christmas markets and boating down the Main. Tomorrow they are off to Berlin, the Adlon, the opera and visits to cousins and other relations. They report by phone they are having a great time. Meanwhile son and I are doing the town in Washington. Life is pretty good.

Arose with only good thoughts for friends & acquaintences here; Lola, Blatham, Thomas, Walter, Timber, and even the ever tart Tartarin. Greeted by a **** storm of vituperation about Tailhook, wallowing with hogs, the stupidity of young men; me as a neanderthal in Tartarin's circus; more character analysis by Lola (In addition to "the binary trick", now there is the "what about you" trick); accusations of intellectual laziness from Blatham (though I did like the bit about aggressive broads shoving their tits into sailor's paws); and of course the world's faintest praise from Thomas ( "... too bad I almost agree...."), and as well another look at that awful photo of Krugman at the top.

Easy guys.... This will require another cup of coffee.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 11:54 am
Nature being what it is, military aged males will be less given to nuanced social correctness than will other demographics ... much as the participants on A2K's Political Threads are somewhat more prone to being ill-mannered than are those who devote most of their time here to Pets and Gardens. Wishing a thing were so does not make it so, no matter how noble the motivation behind the wishing. Reality has a way of disappointing both Pollyanna and Pandora. In fact, it often infuriates them equally.


Mornin', george.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 01:19 pm
OK, here goes, first the tailhook bit.

My initial reference to this event had to do with the odd zeal of Pat Schroeder, Barbara Boxer, and other shrill political partisans of what they call women's rights, for the continued persecution of Naval Aviators whose names were on the list of attendees of the now infamous events in Las Vegas, contrasted with their silence on almost identical legal issues involving Bill Clinton. The tailhook thing was investigated ad nauseum and men whose only fault was to have been there, even though there was no indication of untoward actions on their part, were hounded and denied promotions for years after the event by the same people who so stoutly defended Bill Clinton. We have seen here how Lola and Tartarin strain common sense differentiating the voluntary behavior of Monica and Bill from the supposedly involuntary behaviors indulged in in Las Vegas. In particular Tartarin imagined crimes that did not occur. Interesting perhaps, but a fiction that bears little relation to the facts.

The tailhook thing was every bit as stupid as was Clinton's in office dalliance with Monica. The specific events in both that raised so much furor were equally voluntary on all sides. In Tailhook, those with direct leadership responsibilities, who should have acted to limit the bad behavior, were held accountable and punished. That did not happen with the President. Worse with tailhook, the chief defenders of the President themselves spent years seeking out and persecuting men with only the most peripheral association with tailhook and the events that took place there, and did so with a frightening inquisitorial zeal. One of the motivating factors behind this was the very overt support and association with Naval Aviation of notable Reagan administration figures such as former Secretary of the Navy John Lehman. That is gross hypocrisy.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 01:37 pm
tailhook may also be seen as a precurser to current investigations at the US Air Force Academy which our very conservative Senator Wayne Allard calls the worst since tailhook. As i read it, primary complaints are that top brass continue to deny and coverup rather than expose and resolove such problematic issues. The brass needs to learn they can't keep hiding problems.
um what does this have to do with 2004 elections?
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 01:42 pm
dyslexia wrote:

.... um what does this have to do with 2004 elections?


Probably nothing at all. But read Tart's "neanderthal" post above.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 01:45 pm
and I thought the "neanderthal" reply belonged to........... Oh, never mind <sigh>
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 02:27 pm
well, I just heard for the 197th time (ok I am not really counting) "this is the first time a US President has been to Iraq." I am perhaps being dense here but I am unable to understand the significance of this revelation.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 02:29 pm
Me too, dys. I wonder if Bush even knew he was first.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 02:47 pm
I wonder if Bush ever knew.......................just once Question
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 05:44 pm
Quote:
But in a few cases, non-consensual touching and grabbing degenerated into serious sexual assault. On Saturday night around 11:30 P.M. Navy Lieutenant Paula Coughlin, a helicopter pilot, wandered into the "gauntlet," a mob of drunken airmen arrayed along the third-floor hallway who pounded on the walls and pawed at women as they walked by.

According to Lieutenant Coughlin's oft-repeated account, a Marine Corps captain grabbed her from behind, almost lifting her off the ground by her posterior. She spun around to confront him, but another man grabbed her from behind and the first man then forced his hands down her tube-top. The story broke in October when a letter from the head of the Tailhook Association berating officers for activities "far over the line of responsible behavior" was leaked to the San Diego Union-Tribune. A few months later, Lieutenant Coughlin emerged as its star--the Navy's own Anita Hill.

RUSH TO JUDGMENT

By April 28, 1992, the Navy Investigative Service had amassed a 2,000 page report from 2,200 interviews. But this voluminous study found only 44 instances in which there was clear evidence to justify disciplinary procedures. That was not enough for feminists like Pat Schroeder, who berated the Joint Chiefs for "not getting it." Hoping to appease them, Navy Undersecretary Dan Howard leaked an incomplete version of the NIS report; but this added fuel to the flames. When it emerged that the number of prosecutions was likely to fall below the exaggerated expectations aroused by early reports, the feminists, echoed by the media, alleged "whitewash."

http://www.dadi.org/tailhook.htm

re sentence in bold...non-consensual touching and grabbing is not yet serious sexual assault?...an opinion which leads me to think we males should shut the hell up on this issue.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 05:47 pm
Well, it was her fault for wearing the tank top. Obviously, since women are evil and men are saintly, she didn't realize that she was supposed ot submit to anything the guys wanted. Sluts like her should just realize they are getting what they ask for. Why, she probably enjoyed it, right? Rolling Eyes
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Nov, 2003 06:26 pm
Newsflash -- the sex in the White House was consensual.
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