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2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

 
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 02:45 pm
Tartarin wrote:
An interesting notion, opening PUP. One assumes that might mean wide open. Having it semi-open -- doing its exotic dance behind a translucent sheet -- seems... novel.


It won't be wide open or it'd be kinda pointless.

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But the nanny approach is wrong, I think. As is your need for a whipping boy (so to speak!).


Nannys are only needed where there are _____. And I need a "whipping boy" like I need a third ass. Laughing

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What you are asking for here is a kind of respect-for-the-institution which I don't think has been earned yet, in spite of the fact that so many of us appreciate the time and effort you've put into the technical side of keeping A2K going.


There's no need to "earn" the type of respect I spoke of. This is not a conditional respect. It's the type of respect like this: "Here, have your own private room here but don't burn the curtains or fling excrement out the window".

Like I said, many have wanted private forums. Few have been created. The ones that have been created will lose this privilidge if it is abused. The privilidge doesn't need to "earn" it's respect. It's existence is conditional on the respect afforded to it.

Don't repect it and you won't have it. If you'd like to portray the request not to use the private forums as a staging ground for personal attacks as a respect that needs to be "earned" feel free to characterize it this way. Either way the use of those forums are conditional on the acceptance of those terms. Most have never even had to worry about them.

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Why don't you just take a rest from playing the Bad Guy, as you put it?


I plan to, but that doesn't mean that the site's policy will be changed. It just means that I will become less involved in the site.

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Let the fray be the fray. Read through some of the less popular, more thoughtful political threads sometime. Except for occasional intrusions from the Gotcha Guys, they have been pretty neat.


LOL, you have labeled almost all who disagree with you as those guys in the past, it's no wonder that you think the discussions are great with that as their sole exception. Many on the other side point understandably disagree.

In short, no, this site will not be left to the "fray".
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 02:54 pm
nimh wrote:

i was thinkin' about ten weeks, bill - what, with new year's eve an' all, could be the occasion for a good party ...


Let's get going, time is ticking - we could split it up to one major area of the world for each week Smile
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 03:44 pm
eh ... awright.

i think i'll start out modest and go for, say ... the mediterranean, this weekend ...

northern africa before the week is over. that should keep me on schedule.

what d'ya think?
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 03:57 pm
I think the breeze is blowing in, schedule me for 18 holes - great idea Smile
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 04:09 pm
Tartarin wrote:
... The behaviors and styles in individual A2K threads are the result in large part of behaviors and styles which one finds in each discussion area when one enters, not often (in my observation) the result of individual posts. ...

Why don't you just take a rest from playing the Bad Guy, as you put it? Let the fray be the fray. Read through some of the less popular, more thoughtful political threads sometime. Except for occasional intrusions from the Gotcha Guys, they have been pretty neat.


While it is true that the general behaviors within the (say) political forum are different from those encountered in (say) the poetry forum , there are also meaningful differences in individual behaviors within the political forum, and it is these differences that are the subject at hand here.

I suspect there may not be general agreement among us as to exactly which are the "less popular, more thoughtful political threads", and even as to who are the "Gotcha Guys" (and if they are all gone).
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 04:57 pm
Hey.

When's the Black Caucus debate? Who's moderating (if anyone happens to know)?

Will Clark be torched again? Will the others poke more at Dean, since he's th one to beat? He has an ad out criticising the candidates who voted to authorize the war. I wish they'd be more interesting.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 05:00 pm
I think it is Sunday, better not be during Carnivale!
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 05:03 pm
Surprised Better not be!
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 05:24 pm
brand x good gag above

deb

Yes, my observation too (re the meta debate going on within a number of threads)...and it's a very cool thing, I think...looking at process issues can help us gain some altitude over institutions and protocols which we aren't sometimes even aware we have come to adopt, and which can be limiting.
It's been a great debate and, not coincidentally, the participants have been my favorite folks here, though with a few missing, and with the clear exception of fishin who can't sing a note and whose mother is homely as all get out.

I think, as an experiment, we could attempt something more structured or organized as a way to address issues. For example, we might have only two individuals speaking on a thread and making their arguments, but out of sight, they could each have a team of like-minded assistants offering advice and viewpoint on how best to counter opposition arguments. I envision a moderator here too, not policing spite and bile, which wouldn't be likely to arise much anyway, but rather to correct logical fallacies, ommissions, etc. It could be arranged to terminate in, say, one week.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 05:28 pm
<um, we like Carnivale>
<We're not Democrats>
<I'll tape it>
<nods>
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 06:12 pm
If there's a 7th World Series Game, Sunday's debate will pull some pretty poor viewer share. Then, maybe they schedule them that way to avoid being seen by too broad a "Middle America" market ... going off against the NFL opener sure tucked the first dog-and-pony-show into oblivion.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 06:25 pm
Its like they don't want anyone to watch the debates.
Having seen them, I don't blame them.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 09:24 pm
Quote:
I think, as an experiment, we could attempt something more structured or organized as a way to address issues. For example, we might have only two individuals speaking on a thread and making their arguments, but out of sight, they could each have a team of like-minded assistants offering advice and viewpoint on how best to counter opposition arguments. I envision a moderator here too, not policing spite and bile, which wouldn't be likely to arise much anyway, but rather to correct logical fallacies, ommissions, etc. It could be arranged to terminate in, say, one week.


Or, we could just stage a Rapture.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 09:31 pm
The Nefarious, but perhaps prescient, Mountie wrote:
I think, as an experiment, we could attempt something more structured or organized as a way to address issues. For example, we might have only two individuals speaking on a thread and making their arguments, but out of sight, they could each have a team of like-minded assistants offering advice and viewpoint on how best to counter opposition arguments. I envision a moderator here too, not policing spite and bile, which wouldn't be likely to arise much anyway, but rather to correct logical fallacies, ommissions, etc. It could be arranged to terminate in, say, one week.


Odd you should mention that.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 09:39 pm
Tart

You did catch that hilarious bit in Didion's piece about not aborting (as a matter of evangelical principle) the child of the anti-Christ?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 09:41 pm
All of this below is derived from TNR's latest web issue ...

Factoid of the day: the taller candidate has won the larger number of votes in ten of the 13 US presidential elections since World War II. Shocked

(Just if you're wondering - that'd be good news for Kerry. He is taller than Bush Jr. - unlike Dean and Clark. But he might never get to enjoy it - because in primaries, it seems, the rule of the taller candidate winning doesnt work.)

Astute campaigning theme of the day (Link):

Quote:
Echoing something Bill Clinton has been talking about lately, Clark seems to be trying to set up a debate between ideology and pragmatism. Clinton put it this way: "They--Republicans--believe in government by ideology, enemies, and attack. We believe in government by experiment, evidence, and argument. We actually think we might be wrong now and again, we might have to change." Clark's speeches are filled with similar references. "Traditionally and ideally, we Americans meet our challenges by starting with the facts, analyzing the problem, and reasoning toward a solution--in as public a manner as possible," Clark said in one recent speech. "This administration does things in reverse. They start with a solution, cast about for a problem that 'requires' their solution, and mold the facts to make their case--in as secret a manner as possible." [..] "I don't oppose the president's policies because they are Republican policies," he said recently. "I oppose them because they don't work."


Bad quote of the day: Howard Dean's, "The motto of my campaign is 'I told you so.'"

Background analysis of the day: it's about Dean vs. Gephardt (link):

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The campaign's real clash [..] closely resembles the fights that defined Democratic primaries in the 1980s and 1990s, and its main protagonists are Gephardt and Dean. The media often depict the Democratic primary as a battle between liberals and centrists. But those terms don't capture the real divide within the party: between yuppie reformers and working-class party regulars.

The yuppies are culturally liberal and fiscally conservative. They deride President Bush's tax cuts as unaffordable but suspect we can't afford big new spending programs either. And, reflecting a middle-class, progressive tradition that dates back a century, they are skeptical of anything that smacks of machine politics. They like anti-politicians who tell hard truths. Alienated by quintessential party man Walter Mondale, they flocked to aloof outsider Gary Hart. Alienated by all-things-to-all-people Bill Clinton, they flocked to Paul Tsongas, who equated fiscal belt-tightening with moral virtue. Alienated by packaged, scripted Al Gore, they flocked to introspective, idealistic Bill Bradley. And, this year, they have made a religion of Howard Dean.

The party's working-class regulars, while hostile to the Christian Right, are more culturally traditional and a bit more hawkish (though less so in pacifist Iowa). But, more important, as the people who bear the brunt of cuts in entitlement spending, they don't view fiscal belttightening as morally bracing. The term "reform" is as likely to fill them with anxiety as enthusiasm. And, while the yuppies want to shift power to disinterested individuals (i.e., themselves), the regulars see latter-day political machines (i.e., unions) as their protectors. It is no surprise that the candidates who appeal to these regulars--Mondale, Gore--thrive in blue-collar, union-heavy Iowa. The yuppie candidates--Hart, Tsongas, Bradley-- do best in white-collar, individualistic New Hampshire.

The central political story of the first nine months of 2003 was Dean's eclipsing of Kerry as the yuppies' standard-bearer. [..] Gephardt, on the other hand, has emerged as Dean's perfect foil. With his roots in ethnic, Catholic St. Louis, he has experience appealing to culturally traditional blue-collar voters. And no national politician since Mondale has such deep ties to the labor movement. [..]

Dean, as the national media is discovering, is the most committed fiscal conservative to contend for a Democratic presidential nomination since Tsongas. In Vermont, which isn't constitutionally obliged to balance its budget, Dean nonetheless made balancing the budget his top priority, repeatedly spurning calls for greater social spending and winning praise from the libertarian Cato Institute. [..]

If Dean embodies the fiscal conservatism of yuppie Democrats, Gephardt embodies the regulars' passionate commitment to preserving entitlement programs. He voted against Clinton's 1997 deal, which cut Medicare to reduce the deficit, saying the budget need only be in "rough balance." His health care plan is much bigger than Dean's and tailored to win union support.

In appealing to unions and defending entitlements, Gephardt is pursuing roughly the same strategy that Mondale, Clinton, and Gore used to defeat outsider deficit-hawks. But that strategy is far harder now than it once was, because, over the years, the balance of power in the Democratic Party has been shifting: Dean supporters have been moving in, and Gephardt supporters have been moving out. Non-college-educated men have been drifting into the Republican Party. [..] Conversely, a 1998 National Journal study showed that the wealthiest 100 American communities, alienated by the GOP's fiscal irresponsibility and evangelical moralizing, were growing steadily more Democratic. This infusion of wealth into the Democratic Party means candidates with yuppie appeal can raise far more money than they could in the past. [..]

Dean, who learned fiscal conservatism from his investment-banker, Republican father, embodies today's Democratic Party better than Gephardt, the son of a Teamster from working-class St. Louis. Perhaps nothing explains the fight for the 2004 Democratic presidential nomination better than that.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 09:48 pm
If it's about Dean vs. Gephardt, I'm heartened. If the article in today's NYTimes is anywhere near right, Kerry's goose is cooked (and I'm not weeping over that, for sure).

Blatham: Finally finished Didion (between cleaning up puppy puddles on floor) and think she did a great job. But she could having three consecutive nights on "60 Minutes" and the whole country would still believe Rayford Steele is a real person. That's the kind of trouble we're in.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 10:15 pm
Tartarin

I know. Though no one here has thought to parallel you and I to William Bennett (deep convictions about cultural trends of significance) it is a parallel which has me on high alert for silliness in my own notions and thinking. But what you say is so. And if not reversed, it means ugly ugly stuff...the Handmaid's Tale and more.

On the other thread (the one I originated) those three brilliant minds have moved george not one iota. And george is a fellow I am fond of, who has humor and learning at his disposal. There is a terrifically enlightening definition of 'myth' written by richard Hofstadter, but I have been unable to find it on multiple searches. But it fits the bill here.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 10:25 pm
Oh yes, Hofstadter. I believe the same issue came up in Abuzz. I remember doing a search then but (unhelpfully) don't remember what I found!!

Ah. Once a trog, always a trog. George is determined to be old and grey. Maybe he'll come into the daylight and blink when all hell breaks loose.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2003 10:29 pm
Try this, Blatham: http://www.nationalism.org/patranoia/hofstadter-paranoid-style.htm
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