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2004 Elections: Democratic Party Contenders

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 07:22 pm
I also read "Nickle and Dimed," because a friend reocmmended the book. The neocons will never understand how the poor in this country lives. Many work two jobs, and still can't manage a decent living standard. Something is awfully screwed up when hard workers can't eek out a decent living with two jobs, while some CEO's make hundreds of millions a year. I have concluded that many people do not have ethics, and treat their fellow humans with disdain. Sam Walton, the founder of WalMart is one of the worst examples; he and his family have billions, while they treat their employees like slaves.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 07:25 pm
BTW, when Reagan was governer of California, he threw all of the mentally ill patients out on the streets. That's another example of "compassionate conservatism."
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 07:26 pm
there was a letter to the editor in the paper today, I'll trry and find it and post it, in which the author castigated the working poor for lacking ambition.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 07:28 pm
Here we go:Scrooge Speaks
Quote:
Work hard, but move up

Re: "A window on the world of the poor," Sept. 14 Diane Carman column.

I am sick and tired of hearing sob stories about people trying to make a living from an entry-level job. Do they not understand the concept of "entry level"? These jobs were not meant to make people rich or to support families. Entry-level jobs are a starting point, not a career. The whole idea is to gain experience, learn new skills and to improve oneself. Then you move on, using those skills and experience for the next level. Make a little more money, a few benefits, move on. Onward and upward.

Everything I've read about "Nickel and Dimed" author Barbara Ehrenreich's "odyssey into the world of low-wage workers" only makes me think of a worker who settles for that entry-level life. That's a personal choice, and I refuse to feel guilt.

I, like most people I know, have done most of those same types of jobs in my own odyssey: waitress, bartender, office clerk, sales clerk, house cleaner. Each job was a stepping stone to where I am now: not rich by any means, but not poor either. My first job out of community college, with a 5- year-old to support and a bright, shiny degree in my hand, got me only a $7-per-hour job. I worked hard, earned raises and benefits, made contacts and then moved on. The author moved only laterally, not upward, therefore keeping herself in the same low- paying position. That's the mentality of a low achiever.

To all you liberal thought-cops out there: Quit trying to elevate entry-level workers to sainthood. You do them a disservice by allowing them to believe that they cannot do better; and worse, that it is acceptable.

Name removed

Lakewood
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 09:23 pm
hobitbob wrote:
From my position in EMS over the last two decades, I have become panifully aware of the difficultiues the working poor have in obtaining medical care, often relying on Emergency Departments for primary care issues,and allowing minor illesses to fester until they are major medical complaints.


Yep - happens, entire families (and thus, I deduct, entire population groups) live like that. When Anastasia came here she had to get used to us actually having a regular GP, that you went to with regular complaints, all covered by a reasonably-priced "people's" insurance.

What is so maddening about that is not just the degree to which people end up lacking proper medical care - and even when you end up at Emergency (or especially there), care would be extremely basic and troublesome to obtain, too, heard some horror stories (or they seem like horror stories from a European perspective) - but also - its contraproductive even from a heartless financial perspective, too.

Why is there no popular, affordable government-sponsored insurance scheme? Because it would be too expensive. But what is this? People clogging up the Emergency system with complaints that dont belong there, and ending up there, besides, with ailments that could have been so much more cheaply cured at an earlier stage? Is that not too expensive? As a strategy to limit the government's budget cutting (or refusing to implement) insurance coverage for the poor is not just hard-hearted, its grossly ineffective / counterproductive at that!

cicerone imposter wrote:
BTW, when Reagan was governer of California, he threw all of the mentally ill patients out on the streets.


That happened here too ... its heartbreaking. Plus - same point as above - again, turned out to be contraproductive like hell, too, when it comes to cutting government expenditure.

Back when, the policy here was to confine the mentally ill in remote, leafy complexes away from the city. That had its disadvantages. Patients would have the security of lifelong care, but had also basically been given up on.

New policy from the 80s onwards was to integrate the mentally ill more, strive for some kind of re-entry into regular society again. No more confined, remote institutions, thus. A laudable enough goal, but it was accompanied by stringent budget cuts, rationalised by references to how less care would eventually be needed with the new policies. Devastating consequences.

Those who weren't all too seriously mentally ill were encouraged to live on their own again and rely on walk-in care. Sometimes against their will - friend told me about a woman who'd lived in one institution for over fourty years - ever since her teenage years - and now suddenly had to do it "on her own", despite her acute fear, and her attachment to what for all her adult life had been her home and her friends. Some of them made it, and now have an all the better life. Others didnt, and regressed into the system, at best, dropped out onto the streets, at worst. And that sometimes in combination. One of the most exasperating features of the current system, that policemen and doctors seem to complain about in equal measure, is that the extreme shortage of institutional mental health care places means that you have to regress pretty far to qualify for one of them.

Thus, a man walks the streets yelling out loud and cursing everyone, hours on end - the police pick him up, take him to the station, contact the mental health people - who have to say, sorry, this is not a serious enough case, we have a shortage, only if he'd actually threaten to harm someone, perhaps ... and so, the police, also lacking space, puts the man back onto the street. Until a week or a month later, when he's regressed so much more that he came to attacking someone with a knife. Then he qualifies for admission into an institution. Where he is patched up, adds to the success target rates, and ultimately recovers enough to be "returned" to society - where, in x percent of cases, he regresses again, and the whole cycle starts anew. Sad, but also extremely inefficient, if you consider the money and time he has cost, by that time, and that then needs to be (re)invested in him again.

More sadder still - those who constituted extremely hard cases largely fell out of the new system, too. The new task for the system, after all, was to make people better. And considering the budget cuts, mental health institutions had to start working with strict targets on that. Not meeting these targets would risk the funding. So what happens with people who cant be cured, ever? Not talking the extremely retarded, but the extremely disturbed? The system, once concluding that, seen from its new rationale, it "cant help" these people, turned them out onto the street in great numbers. Thazzit. Where they then start walking the streets howling and stealing and harassing people. And suffering. And dying, eventually. And costing the police, emergency hospitals, victims, etc, a lot of money, in the meantime, so that - again - overall, even as a budget cut move the whole transformation turns out contraproductive. But who sees the "overall" ... ?

What do I base all this on? I'm no expert, after all. But a good friend of mine worked in mental health care institutions for years (for a pittance), and she told me a lot. Sad. You also read a lot about it - everyone, from the "tough" police to the "soft" mental health people complaining about those maddening cycles. The result is here downtown. When I came to Utrecht 13 years ago, there were hardly homeless people. Within five years, their number boomed - and then boomed on for another five years. Now theres an estimated fivehundred or something - and this is a small town. I live downtown in a small sidestreet, and while the junkies gather at the station, the crazies walk all over - almost every night one or two will pass by down here while I'm typing - cursing, yelling, whatever. So many. Its a bloody scandal.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 09:32 pm
"liberal thought cops".... now, there's an original thinker
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 09:52 pm
It's true, nimh, I worked in mental health institutions (hospitals, community mental health clinics) in New York and Texas in the 70s and early 80s. The panhandlers and homeless everywhere (except in New York City, where Giuliani sent them to Hoboken along with the hookers and porn) are many of the abandoned mentally ill. They have no place to go. Eventually they die, commit suicide, but in the meantime it's costing a fortune in tax payer's money and is not humane in any way. It's a crime really.

Some of the mass murders (like Son of Sam) were psychiatric patients who could not be kept for longer than 90 days (and could not today be kept longer than a week or two) in a mental institution. When I worked on discharge planning, when we couldn't find a job for an outgoing patient (and they had to have a place to live and a way to make income like SSI or a job) we sent them to the post office. I've laughed many times when I see articles wondering why so many postal workers blow up and start shooting their fellow workers..........I can tell them why. It's both funny and horrible at the same time.
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 09:58 pm
The sad part of all this is it is not really just conservatives who are standing in the way of healthcare reforms. During Clinton's first term, we missed a golden opportunity to make some real changes in the health care system. The political infighting and special interest groups on both sides forfeited the opportunity. Now everyone wants to be the group who gets credit for the reforms and refuses to get out of the way so that the job gets done regardless of who gets the gold star.

It's like this Meagan's Law fiasco in California. The law expired and now we have no law at all that allows citizens to find out if convicted sexual predators are in their neighborhoods. Why was it allowed to expire? Because one group didn't like the fact that 100% of the predators weren't accounted for, that some slipped through the cracks. Rather then renew the law and then fix it, they removed the law totally but never got around to writing a new more comprehensive law to fix it. Now California is the only state in the country without such a law giving access to the information. We get to start all over again from scratch when a new session of the Legislature convenes. In the meantime, parents aren't given the information they need to protect their kids.

If I ran a company the way our government is run most times, I'd be fired, bankrupt and sued for incompetence. And people wonder why there is such a growing number of folk who throw up their hands in defeat and just don't bother anymore.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 10:00 pm
Quote:
If I ran a company the way our government is run most times, I'd be fired, bankrupt and sued for incompetence

And that would just be the first day!
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 10:14 pm
All in all, there's a lot to be said for getting more business folks involved in government, as opposed to getting government more involved in business.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 10:18 pm
Wasn't that the rallying cry of the Perot group?
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 10:21 pm
timberlandko wrote:
All in all, there's a lot to be said for getting more business folks involved in government, as opposed to getting government more involved in business.


I wish the answer were that easy.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 10:26 pm
Me too, BFN. It ain't though, not by a damned site.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 10:32 pm
If government were run like business, our Army would be outsourced to India, the Federal Reserve would be in the Bahamas, and the Dept of State would be based in some tiny little town in Alabama.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 10:37 pm
...and the Board of Directors would be under criminal indictment
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 10:45 pm
Wasn't there a recent proposal put up the flag pole about having much of the administrative aspects of the federal government outsourced to foreign countries? I'll see if I can find an article about it.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 10:51 pm
I love the business model. I think the wisdom of it ought to be imported not only to governance of a state, but to the family as well. For example, briefly...

Many families would be far more efficient and effective if downsized, clearly.

Sexual gratification, a significant part of most individuals' lives, could, in many cases, be outsourced, thereby leaving time for the wife to do dishes and laundry.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 11:12 pm
Oh Blatham, you are being tongue in cheek again. Like the nun gone bad comment, which we now all understand, Snicker, snort,.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 11:25 pm
I think the nun gone bad comment was by Dyslexia about a different nun, Sumac. But Blatham doesn't seem to be able to keep his tongue out of his cheek lately. It's a chronic condition, it seems.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2003 11:37 pm
blatham wrote:
...and the Board of Directors would be under criminal indictment


not to mention what a "business" administration of the country's government would do to the fate of those mentally ill people that Lola, c.i. and I were talking about ...

oh, we've already seen most of what it would do on that count, i guess, huh? Sad
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