God's Presence on Earth through His Spirit (Scripture & Photos Examined)

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
If you're really interested learn to read the languages in which the extant manuscripts were written.
Happily, God does not require us to be linguistic geniuses, realistic discernment can suffice.

Says you.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

If you're really interested learn to read the languages in which the extant manuscripts were written.

neologist wrote:

Happily, God does not require us to be linguistic geniuses, realistic discernment can suffice.

InfraBlue wrote:

Says you.

Considering the state of world affairs, if we needed to be expert in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, we would all be up the proverbial creek with nothing but incomprehensible manuscripts for paddles.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

My friend, I am still struggling to see an issue.

According to the Genesis account, Adam and Eve were given a command and a consequence. They knew that if they ate, they would die. They did on both counts. I don't see the same lack of justice that you see, but maybe that is born of my preconceived position.

As for the tree of eternal life, there is no command not to eat of it recorded and they were not denied on record until after they had been punished, perhaps the removal of the privilege was the means by which they would die within a yom, perhaps the eating of the tree could sustain life for short of 1000 years or so. who knows Razz

I've certainly been wrong before and this is mere conjecture on my part.

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@Smileyrius,

Smileyrius wrote:

My friend, I am still struggling to see an issue.

According to the Genesis account, Adam and Eve were given a command and a consequence. They knew that if they ate, they would die. They did on both counts. I don't see the same lack of justice that you see, but maybe that is born of my preconceived position.

As for the tree of eternal life, there is no command not to eat of it recorded and they were not denied on record until after they had been punished, perhaps the removal of the privilege was the means by which they would die within a yom, perhaps the eating of the tree could sustain life for short of 1000 years or so. who knows I've certainly been wrong before and this is mere conjecture on my part.

The story is nonsense in many ways.

First it proves that god is NOT omniscient. If god was then he would have known before he even created them that they would eat from the tree that he commands them not to. He would have known when he was warning them that they would end up disobeying him. There would NOT have been a point in even doing it because he would have known the result.

This calls into question. If god knew they would end up eating from the tree why not put the tree in a place where they can't get to it?

There is a finite number of possible reasons for this and each one of them call into question god's traits or asinine ways.

If he allowed them to have access to the tree but still warns them then he honestly did not care about their exposure to the tree. In fact you could even say he WANTED them to partake in the tree so he could set in motion to punish them. He wanted them to eat even though he commanded them not to.

He knew if he commanded them not to that they would any way and this allows him to punish them later for disobeying. If not then god is not omniscient. So which is it?

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Further conjecture if I may, the hebrew word for knowing is Yaw'dah, sounds like a prominent star wars character I know, but it is used in a wide variety of senses. Just a few I cherry picked,

Appointing good and bad
Teaching good and bad
Declaring good and bad
Discerning good and bad

My own perception of the story has always been that they were convinced by the serpent that they could decide for themselves what was good and bad, rather than be told by God.

Still, I could be wrong.

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

First it proves that god is NOT omniscient. If god was then he would have known before he even created them that they would eat from the tree that he commands them not to. He would have known when he was warning them that they would end up disobeying him. There would NOT have been a point in even doing it because he would have known the result.

This calls into question. If god knew they would end up eating from the tree why not put the tree in a place where they can't get to it?

There is a finite number of possible reasons for this and each one of them call into question god's traits or asinine ways.

If he allowed them to have access to the tree but still warns them then he honestly did not care about their exposure to the tree. In fact you could even say he WANTED them to partake in the tree so he could set in motion to punish them. He wanted them to eat even though he commanded them not to.

He knew if he commanded them not to that they would any way and this allows him to punish them later for disobeying. If not then god is not omniscient. So which is it?

God has the power to know future events; but God has no more need to peer into the future of his creations than you or I are obliged to read the last page of the whodunit. This is essential to our possession of free will.

There is a finite number of possible reasons for not understanding this and each one of them highlights our human traits and asinine ways

1 Reply

@Smileyrius,

I believe Frank misspoke in the place where he said tree of eternal life. He called it the tree of life in other parts of his post. While it could mean eternal life, I'm not sure that would be an appropriate understanding.

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@neologist,

You are right my friend, to be eternal one would be without beginning or end, perhaps the tree of life "to time indefinite" would be a better term

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@Krumple,

Id add to comments made prior that God has his angels reporting back to him according to the book of Job, which corroborates the suggestion that God does not exist in everlasting omniscience.
It would be a pretty soul destroying job to report something you deem important to a guy that cuts you off half way through your introduction and says "I know". Shoulders drop and walk away *sadfaces*

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@Smileyrius,

Smileyrius wrote:

My friend, I am still struggling to see an issue.

According to the Genesis account, Adam and Eve were given a command and a consequence. They knew that if they ate, they would die. They did on both counts. I don't see the same lack of justice that you see, but maybe that is born of my preconceived position.

It might be.

I do know that the object of the story is that Adam and Eve do not know the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil...and that the god does not want them to know that difference.

That is the point of the story.

If they did "wrong" or "evil"...THEY DID NOT KNOW THEY WERE DOING IT. But they were punished for doing what they COULD NOT KNOW was wrong.

Quote:

As for the tree of eternal life, there is no command not to eat of it recorded and they were not denied on record until after they had been punished, perhaps the removal of the privilege was the means by which they would die within a yom, perhaps the eating of the tree could sustain life for short of 1000 years or so. who knows I've certainly been wrong before and this is mere conjecture on my part.

Obviously the people who wrote that story screwed up on many accounts...including the fact that the tree of eternal life was there for the eating...which they might have done before eating of the other tree.

Whatever.

The story is a mess...and, in my opinion, to attribute it to any god...is an insult to gods everywhere.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

I believe Frank misspoke in the place where he said tree of eternal life. He called it the tree of life in other parts of his post. While it could mean eternal life, I'm not sure that would be an appropriate understanding.

Your god said that eating the fruit of the tree would result in eternal life, Neo.

Just quoting from the god of the story.

Quote:

“The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Genesis 3:21

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

God has the power to know future events; but God has no more need to peer into the future of his creations than you or I are obliged to read the last page of the whodunit. This is essential to our possession of free will.

There is a finite number of possible reasons for not understanding this and each one of them highlights our human traits and asinine ways

Free will is irrelevant because all possible conclusions would be available for god to know if he is omniscient. I like how you try to get around it by saying god has the ability to ignore his omniscience. That is called making up bullshit as a way to justify the story. Why not face the facts that the original writers did not see their god as omniscient. If you knew the history of ancient jews which is well documented, yahweh was not a disembodied essence in some other realm of existence. He was their god of war and loved bloodshed and punishing the jews enemies.

There is even a story where Jacob wrestles with god and wins! Not only that but he set up a little pick nick for god and god's attendants to come visit him on earth. He gets injured of course in the process but he still wins the wrestling match? This story is conveniently glossed over by many christians because it calls into question god's supposed traits.

It is clear that modern Christianity is judiasm-lite. The early christians did not like the complexity that jewish laws brought onto the people. There being over six hundred rules and regulations. Which on a side note if you actually examine all of them you would come to the conclusion that these early Jews didn't understand the world and they attributed every disease or illness to the wrath of their god. Such as eating shellfish or coming into contact with a woman during her menstruation. Washing your hands before you eat and so on. They didn't understand how diseases worked and assumed any time a person got sick to the acts of their god as a form of punishment.

This is also where we get the term scape goat. It assumes that another animal can take on the sins of the people and by it's suffering all their sins are forgiven. So they would get a goat and pray over it as an offering to their god and then send it out to the dessert to die. The story of Jesus is just another form of scape-goating. Where one individual takes on the sins of everyone else and then is sacrificed to god. Once this was taken care of they no longer needed to waste the goats to do it for them.

If you actually study the jewish derived sections of the bible you'll see how many things Yahweh hated. Like using yeast to make bread and cooking with certain types of oils. Why the hell would a god be so petty as to torture individuals for using an oil to cook with? This god creates the universe with it's complex physics and chemistry yet gets angry over putting cheese on a hamburger? Really? Or having a slab of bacon for breakfast.

Modern christians nullify all the ancient commandments so they can partake in all these things because it is easier to follow a few laws but if you had to follow six hundred plus laws and the punishment for disobeying was death then of course they would gravitate towards the easier religious practice of just putting all their money on Jesus saving them. This is why the bible is full of contradictions and how you can see a duality with the ancient version of Yahweh and the modern interpretation of Yahweh. One is wicked and vengeful while the modern hippy christians try to claim god is nothing other than love.

It's clear it is all bullshit to suit the minds of the lazy.

1 Reply

@neologist,

The Spirit of truth is another title for the Holy Spirit who glorifies Christ by bearing witnesses that we belong to Christ and declaring this to the Apostles who sit on the thrones of judgment so that we are not judged and may go onto the Father. John 16:13

This is how Christ builds His kingdom here on earth through the Holy Spirit.

1 Reply

@Patches,

Patches wrote:

The Spirit of truth is another title for the Holy Spirit who glorifies Christ by bearing witnesses that we belong to Christ and declaring this to the Apostles who sit on the thrones of judgment so that we are not judged and may go onto the Father. John 16:13

This is how Christ builds His kingdom here on earth through the Holy Spirit.

This doesn't even make any sense. It's just christian verbal vomit.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

The word 'omniscient' implies necessity. One who is all powerful would not be subject to any necessity other than to accomplish his stated purpose.

When you define God according to your own bias, it gives you permission to reject his sovereignty. Understandable but dangerous.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

The word 'omniscient' implies necessity. One who is all powerful would not be subject to any necessity other than to accomplish his stated purpose.

When you define God according to your own bias, it gives you permission to reject his sovereignty. Understandable but dangerous.

But I am not making the claim that he is or isn't. I am merely examining the consequences of either side. If he is omniscient then his behavior according to the bible does not make sense. If he is not omniscient then the bible would make a whole hell of a lot more sense (pun intended).

My over all point is that for a believer they never analyze the attributes that they in fact attribute to their god. Saying things like god exists outside the universe in a timeless realm. These things need to be looked at if they make sense. I continue to do this yet it doesn't stop a person from making the claim regardless.

Just like the time issue. You can't do things without time existing but this doesn't stop people from trying to say that you can. It becomes a paradox in terms. If you start saying well god can transcend paradoxes and do things without time then all paradoxes come into play as well. The absurdity goes to infinity at that point and even the most absurd claims can be justified under that same line of reasoning.

In other words it says nothing other than wishful wanting.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

The word 'omniscient' implies necessity. One who is all powerful would not be subject to any necessity other than to accomplish his stated purpose.

When you define God according to your own bias, it gives you permission to reject his sovereignty. Understandable but dangerous.

On a side note.

If god is omniscient then that existence would be absolutely terrible. (in my opinion)

Here is my line of reasoning..

You wouldn't be able to play any games at all because you would know the outcome before you even started. There would be no surprises or wonder because you would already know everything. Existence would be down right miserable. There would be no mystery.

Oh wait, when Adam and Eve were hiding he kept calling for them asking where they were. I guess he just likes to pretend like he is ignorant just to make the story more interesting. I guess he wasn't aware that the snake would tempt Eve to start with. He just wandered off to play some backgammon with himself to see who would win and got distracted.

Maybe he chose to ignore his knowledge so that he could punish Pharaoh so he could justify killing every first born child of Egypt. You know since he loves killing off his creation at every chance he can muster up. He didn't see Sodom and Gomorrah coming until it was too late to save.

He didn't realize that the tower of babel would have fallen by it's own construction limitations. You can't build a brick building to space without the bottom layers failing to compressive stress. I guess god failed his physics class.

1 Reply

@neologist,

What does the current state of world affairs have to do with learning about the discrepancies between the extant manuscripts and then the discrepancies between these and their translations into other languages?

1 Reply

@Krumple,

You fail to consider that god could be a sadistic bastard that knows the outcome but just likes to torment those he controls including giving them an incomplete and contradictory manual for how to behave.

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@Krumple,

'Omniscient' is not a biblical expression. It is a word sometimes applied to God's power to know the outcome of any event. But it implies necessity and God is subject to no necessity. That is how he allows us choice. - Deuteronomy 30:19

2 Replies

God's Presence on Earth through His Spirit (Scripture & Photos Examined)

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